Rivet Counters

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:15 am

I am sure I might get some stick. But there is no offence intended I was reading some of the comments left by the rivet counters to the guys writing the routeâ€™s . Surly dose it mater if someone has the wrong gantry or the wrong lamp post. So long as the route is well put together & pleasing to the eye. And most of all interesting for me thatâ€™s the fun of the hobby.

There have been some routeâ€™s written that think are far better than some of the commercial stuff & at a fraction of the cost. So thanks guys. Just keep the route's coming....

John

Swindon

Lad491 · Post by **Lad491** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:19 am

Im with you there John. Ive always considered routes to be representations of the real thing, not an exact copy. In my view therefore it is better to have something which runs well and feels right, but that is maybe short of some sidings or tracks or detail, rather than a route which is spot on accurate and runs like a dog.

Obviously its nice to get the main running lines and signalling as close as possible to the real thing, but since it isnt the real thing, allowances have to be made. We cant see as far ahead in the sim as you could in real life, so signals have to be further apart so you have a reasonable chance to stop. Likewise im sure our trains dont perform like the real versions.

So yes - its not the real world, its a representation of the real world.

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:16 am

Hi John
Thats IMO the skill of the route builder,which I consider is more of an art form, more so than any other area of train simming.
Therefore the route builders are more like artists, and the routes are their impressions of what is real life.The problems occur when they get it wrong, which they do.I remember a long discussion on cross-overs on P2P.
I don't think it happens very often these days as most route builders are backed up by teams who are more than willing to criticise, before the public see the route.
I've always thought the term 'rivet counting' as more applicable to models,and done my fair share of criticising.
The problem is often one of standards. I fully believe in pushing msts to its limits,and having seen whats available worldwide,it does make you wonder sometimes.
Cheers
Jon

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:49 am

To be fair there are those that will revit count. I remember doing a demo at a show.I had written activity for Thames - Mersey which has some TGV's in it he then took an hour to tell me why. Yes I do agree that you need some feed back. Because you couldnt build without it. I just think that sometimes it go's a bit far.

John

Swindon

MuzTrem · Post by **MuzTrem** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:54 am

I can sometimes be a bit of a rivet-counter, in both rolling stock and route building. But whenever I make comments about other people's work, it is always intended as constructive criticsm to help them see ways that they can amke their work that bit better. If they are unable or unwilling to do so for whatever reason, then that is their choice and I fully respect their decision.

leezer3 · Post by **leezer3** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:17 am

jbilton wrote:I've always thought the term 'rivet counting' as more applicable to models,and done my fair share of criticising.
The problem is often one of standards. I fully believe in pushing msts to its limits,and having seen whats available worldwide,it does make you wonder sometimes.
Cheers
Jon

With respect, please stop this petty sniping

Be grateful that these people have actually made the effort to build something and contribute to the community. I would far rather have bad models than no models at all- Look at my work in BVE, which is nowhere near the highest standards, but which still gives people pleasure.

Here comes the argument all over again

Chris Lees

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:42 am

leezer3 wrote: With respect, please stop this petty sniping
Be grateful that these people have actually made the effort to build something and contribute to the community. I would far rather have bad models than no models at all- Look at my work in BVE, which is nowhere near the highest standards, but which still gives people pleasure.

Here comes the argument all over again

Chris Lees

With respect Chris....I don't think I started this thread.

However it is my opinion, things should progress, and standards have to move up-wards.
Otherwise we'd still be playing DOS games.
You made a good start in BVE...but its moved on ..get with BVE 4..or fade away....Your only as good as the last model you produced.
My point being is there are models produced today which are not as good as some models produced in 2002...and that is wrong in anyones book.
Telling these authors...hey thats brilliant...does no one any favours.
Its not rivet counting in my book.
Cheers
Jon

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:45 am

Chris I had not intended it to be sniping match. I know just how hard it is to build a route. The frist was a mess. This time I have a bit of help But lets have usefull help if you know what I mean..

John

Swindon

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:58 am

I think the whole point was there are lots of people that will tell you used the type of station or the wrong signal box I can understand if you are modeling a place or a time. But to knock someone who has used the wrong building etc. As I said when started. I have no wish to offend anyone.

If I have I am sorry

John

Swindon

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:06 am

partyspiritz wrote:I think the whole point was there are lots of people that will tell you used the type of station or the wrong signal box I can understand if you are modeling a place or a time. But to knock someone who has used the wrong building etc. As I said when started. I have no wish to offend anyone.
If I have I am sorry
John
Swindon

Hi John
No I would fully support your comment above...it is quite unnecessary.
And contrary to Chris's beliefs....I've never done that.
My only rider to that would be if that particular signal box was freely available....then the author is plainly being lazy not using it.
Cheers
Jon

leezer3 · Post by **leezer3** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:20 am

I hadn't really intended it to be a sniping match either

(Inevitably though, that is what anything of this type of thread is going to turn into)
Trouble is though, I see far too many people, who seem to have no understanding of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something that is 'bad/ wrong', let alone something that is good. Just because the particular prototype is available in model form, so what; there are plenty of reasons why the author may choose not to use that model in favour of something else (As seen by the recent arguments), and does that decrease the quality of the model?- In most cases no, just in the eyes of people who feel that everything is supposed to be simply an exact paralell and not just a simulation. In railway modelling, I tweak track layouts and buildings to build what I want, and I see no harm in that.

Just remember, no-one has to build anything and comments like wrong buildings will get no-one anywhere.

Chris Lees

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:31 am

Look all this started because I read a commit left by someone about Brimingham New Street and I thourght the commit was out order.

For someone to even take on such a task.... Hats off to them I say

John

Swindon

leezer3 · Post by **leezer3** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:34 am

jbilton wrote:Otherwise we'd still be playing DOS games.
You made a good start in BVE...but its moved on ..get with BVE 4..or fade away....Your only as good as the last model you produced.

Once again, you are missing the point

Something doesn't need to have all the latest features and the best detail to still be good- A good example of this is the predecessor to BVE- Mechanik. This is a DOS based sim, and therefore by your comments is no longer of any relavance. Not so- I still play it, and when I posted looking for some of the earlier UK routes (on the TS.com forums), I found that there were others who were interested too. This lead me to create a whole section dedicated to it on my site, and I am getting at least one download per day of most of the routes.
Again, just because something is 'outdated' in your view doesn't make it any less valid.

Chris Lees

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:41 am

leezer3 wrote:
jbilton wrote:Otherwise we'd still be playing DOS games.
You made a good start in BVE...but its moved on ..get with BVE 4..or fade away....Your only as good as the last model you produced.
Once again, you are missing the point
Something doesn't need to have all the latest features and the best detail to still be good-
Chris Lees

It does in my book....your entitled to your opinion....but that is what it is....only an opinion...why you think your opinion is more correct than others....is a problem only you can deal with.
To be honest, IMO, I don't think you really deal with msts..so I'd don't know why you even frequent these forums.
Cheers
Jon

partyspiritz · Post by **partyspiritz** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:43 am

Chris I could not commit as I have never uesd it & I would have know idea what you are talking about

John

Swindon