Bring Back BR?

[kyle14uk]

Should the government bring back British Rail?

[timbooth]

I posted yes on the assumption this is FULL nationalisation, and not necessarily a step-back in time to BR days (given its inherent problems)

[n863dwt]

i know that this topic was started some 10 months ago but i would say that the government should nationalise it but not the toc side just the maintenance i mean surely it would make the british public feel better knowing that repairs are not being sub-contracted onto cowboys that are charging something like £1000.00 a year but not keeping the rails maintained.

would we mind a slight tax increase if it meant safer public transport....?

[martinhodgson]

i know that this topic was started some 10 months ago but i would say that the government should nationalise it but not the toc side just the maintenance i mean surely it would make the british public feel better knowing that repairs are not being sub-contracted onto cowboys that are charging something like £1000.00 a year but not keeping the rails maintained.

And forgetting to replace loose nuts etc

[saddletank]

1) Sell off all the modern tacky plastic boxes
2) Use the money generated to restore to full working order the NRM collection
3) Instigate some PROPER railway services, hauled by #2 above

End of plan.

[Rolf Harris/]Well, d'ya like it?[/Rolf Harris]

[crosscountry]

NO!NO!NO!

When will you people see that nationalisation is a step back to even more underinvestment and misery.

Unification is the key. Fewer TOC's looking after their own track and ensuring services connect.

Bloody hell, nationalisation is what got us in this mess in the first place. You can dream all you want of steam trains and deltics and other archaic devices but this is 2002, nearly 2003. Europe is running trains at 200mph plus, so is Japan. With proper government investment, the cutting out of middle men and a rationalised privatisation, as well as a little imagiination, we could one day get there.

(skulks off into a corner to whinge about dinosaurs)

[johndibben]

YES, YES, YES with knobs on

Unification is the key. Unify the public transport system in this country so it serves the public and not 'fat cats' profits.

For the ill informed press, the *cough* (ptoo ptoo) Tory Government starved BR of investment in the required places in it's final years.

It concentrated spending on rolling stock which were sold off at a fraction of it's true value and made the franchises more attractive.

This Government was elected to sweep away such appalling abuses of power. So far it hasn't delivered.

BR was so backward it produced some of the biggest innovations in railway history. The WCML in the 60's, then a world class railway, only one example. Other 'failures' like the HST have pulled the 'greedy little 'brown nosers' out of their collective mire.

The Thatcher (ptoo ptoo) legacy, those bought up in her years of dictatorship, are bringing this country to it's knees.

The press tell the truth, pigs fly, George W Bush wants peace and I'm not opinionated

Please excuse my levity but how else can you react to such ill-informed twaddle.

Anyway, what's this to do with train-simming.

Please delete thread immediately

[southcoasttrains]

I'd say no..

We had a rubbish train service back then, two trains an hour in each direction, and that was in the summer.

We now have 4 trains each way in the winter and the same in the summer.

Network South East I would welcome back.

[crosscountry]

I judge that the "ill informed press" comment was a jibe about me!

Each to their own...

I favour privatisation...but a rationalised form where track and train are operated by the same company. But a private company who are able to add additional investment to what comes from central coffers.

There is no way the railways would get any more than they do now and take away the private cash...you're screwed.

Its politics as well as feeling I'm afraid. The treasury will never cough up... therefore without private cash the system gets worse.

You speak of all the "Wonderful" things BR did...well, remember Beeching? APT? the botched ECML modernisation? Transpennine sprinterisation....?

You people think its all so simple, put it back into public hands....blah blah blah...

NO NO NO NO NO With bells knobs whistles and anything else handy on....

Public ownership=less cash...in this country

Blame Thatcher all you like but it is really every one of us who is to blame. We don't want taxes too high so we don't get the scale of public investment they do on the continent.

Everyone wants the best but nobody wants to pay which is why the private purse is a must. What is wrong with privatisation is not privatisation itself but the structure imposed by the tory government. Coupled with the post Hatfield safety mania costs and delay times have soared.

But things are still better than in the dying days of BR...oh yes. Don't kid yourselves with those rose tinted glasses. Old, dirty trains, surly staff, a don't give a . attitude pervading the system...no lights, no heat, no toilet.

Give me a break. If you want to go back to that you can but don't try and kid the rest of us that BR was any better than this or would be any better than this. Privatisation=more cash=more investment.

The structure needs to be changed but god help us lets not go back to the dark days.

[johndibben]

Not relevant

[johndibben]

Not relevant

[Goingnorth]

Oooh! A BR thread, I like one of those!

Okay, here's my view. BR was, essentially (give or take a bit) a good system! Now, before everyone starts booing, I'll tell you why: It ran on a subsidy of little over £1 billion!

BR even made a profit in later days...admitiddly not a very big one, and it was achieved through selling off the family silver (lots of premium land!)..but nevertheless a profit.

Something like east-coast main line electrification (costing £350 million) was a big project by BR standards in 1990 - not that long ago. There was also a massive campaign set up in the mid 1980s to save the Settle and Carlisle...which required a mere £2 million! A figure these days lost during a heavy lunch with the black tower.

Now at the time, the service in general was not considered great. BR took a lot of bashing over many issues. It had problems with unions throughout it's life. But considering the subsidy, they did rather well.

Put it like this, if the £33 billion that's been 'lost' (with the current bunch of gravy train personages) was put into BR...you could have had XC electrification, WC250, cross rail, GW electrification. Major resignalling and a bunch of new rollingstock. That, I'm afraid, is just a fact.

Turning to the current lot. The ones complete with multiple bail outs and an even worse service in general. Not to mention the MASSIVE waste of public money that has gone on. I seriously would consider kicking most, if not all of them out. Let em go bust! It's analogous to kids that run out of pocket money by Wednesday. You'd still be able to run the service, just transfer the drivers to the SRA. Dump the hangers on, somewhere near Watford Gap.

So what's the ultimate answer? Well, in a perfect world a private BR. Integrated, standardised railway...on..wait for it..a profit! (cos all public services have to make a profit...you know like MPs!).

But sadly it's not a perfect world and BR plc would still require state handouts. So you could look at a Network rail type set up..a trust. Not bad, but the biggest problems remains saleability, if the taxes aren't to shoot up. Those city boys eh?

How about, a sliced up Network rail? Network rail standards, but 4 regions (alright, alright, the old big four). Rolling stock still leased, with the added wow factor of private companies having wheel AND rail within their portfolio.

As Virgin has found out with operation princess...having wonderful new trains with the best staff on-train ain't gonna make 'em run on time. That requires infrastructure investment (which they can't manage), lots of green signals, and an attention to detail only the track provider can give.

So cut out all your layers of management, the consultants (that tell the management in most cases what they should know anyway), the fat cat contractors...and all the hangers on...cos that's where the money is going. Difficult eh? NOT. And strip the beast down. I don't mean BR style. I mean lets have professional, dedicated, well trained staff at the front end: Drivers, signallers, controllers, S&T, Pway, Station staff...and give them plenty of back up. In other words lets not have the roster down to the bone so when the hanky's come out the services out of Woking finish. And get rid the the lazy, peanut quaffing, coffee drinking, inadequate beings sat around meeting tables looking at the small print rather that getting out on the trains, helping passenger and staff. Motivating them, rather than bringing in silly ideas so they can add to their CVs.

BTW Anyone that has worked for the railway will know that the first sign of trouble management, will, always find something ELSE to do. Like watching gnomes at Seer Green.

I rest my case.

[Fodda]

Blame Thatcher all you like but it is really every one of us who is to blame. We don't want taxes too high so we don't get the scale of public investment they do on the continent...

... Everyone wants the best but nobody wants to pay which is why the private purse is a must. The structure needs to be changed but god help us lets not go back to the dark days.

OK... Firstly, that's a sweeping generalisation. I know that some people don't want to pay any more tax at all and some even want to pay less! But there are a large number of people in this country that wouldn't mind paying more tax to see an improvement in all public services, rail included. I can afford it after all. And if I could replace one of my cars with regular cheapish rail travel, I'd probably save a bit of cash too. So please don't say "nobody want to..." as I do.

And secondly... nobody's said we should return to any "bad days". Nothing like this is as black and white as you're making out, there's always a third fourth or even fifth way to make a public company run properly.

Lastly, I'd just like to second what Rob's written above. Very nicely written, succinct and to the point. Moreover... I agree with the lot.

[bjdick]

The reference to the "Private Purse" being needed to run the railways is,in my opinion,rubbish.Such purses only invest to make a private profit.

The present private rail system is a sham,invented to satisfy right wing political dogma,and to carry the can,if things go pear shaped.

The net cost to the taxpayer is still a debit,so nothing's changed there.At the first sign of trouble,by the shedding crocodile tears,and a with handout of public money,the government gains political kudos by helping the "failing" private Co's,and the shareholders still get their divi.

Watch out for more of the same folks.The hospitals,and fire service,oh and your pension provisions,are being groomed for similar treatment,by "private" companies taking over "failing" hospitals etc.

You'll pay in the end,after a life of low direct taxes,by being a pensioner with no pension,being charged,when you're burned in a fire,both for the actions of the fire service,and your hospital treatment.

[crosscountry]

What I meant was that the government as it stands will never raise taxes sufficently to fund the investment required in the rail system. That is why some element of private ownership is required to privide the necessary capital. Like the crimson empire and Pendelino/Voyager.

I agree with most, if not all that goingnorth has to say. Unlike me I feel he did have the luxury of not being fuming after being stranded on Carlisle station for 2 hours after missing a train at Newcastle and discovering a 1 and a half hour gap in Virgin's new "high frequency" timetable.

Now I've calmed down may I say that I wrote my response in the spirit the title suggests. "Bring back BR" to me conjours images of cost cutting, top heavy management and a gradually degrading system.

I think the best way foreward is a "big four" structure. Large companies with intercity profits balancing regional losses. Track and train together under one roof. Thinner management structures, an end to rule from the black tower and an end to the use of consultants who are the biggest waste of money in the world.

Sorry for getting backs up, but this is something I really feel strongly about. Yes the current privatisation is a sham, but privatisation in the right structure can work