Carrying on the voyager debate

kyle14uk · Post by **kyle14uk** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:26 pm

Are you for or against the voyager being introduced?

simont · Post by **simont** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:34 pm

Overall for it, but I don't like the fact that they're killing HST's! Can't they run alongside each other?

timbooth · Post by **timbooth** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:56 pm

The railway needs modernising if its to survive, sadly this means the demise of HST's, and Class 47's, but these are at the end of their operational lives anyway.

exshunter · Post by **exshunter** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:54 pm

call me old fashioned but i think those voyager things are aweful,they remind me of an hst but sound like a sprinter.
bring back all services loco hauled

morricom · Post by **morricom** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:39 pm

One of the better Star Trek series

n863dwt · Post by **n863dwt** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:05 pm

i know the last post in this was about a year ago

i think that we need more new trains yes...i do like some loco's
think the one thing i hated about loco traisn was the dull and dreary interior colours and the mk.2's

n863dwt · Post by **n863dwt** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:05 pm

i know the last post in this was about a year ago

i think that we need more new trains yes...i do like some loco's
think the one thing i hated about loco traisn was the dull and dreary interior colours and the mk.2's

n863dwt · Post by **n863dwt** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:06 pm

i know the last post in this was about a year ago

i think that we need more new trains yes...i do like some loco's
think the one thing i hated about loco traisn was the dull and dreary interior colours and the mk.2's

rwaceyw · Post by **rwaceyw** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:38 pm

Why revive an old thread

David.

Kevo00 · Post by **Kevo00** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:25 pm

I'm just back from a study trip to the Czech Republic which I went on by train, and found the proper trains used on EuroCity and Czech national expresses to be a breath of fresh air compared to the toy trains we are used to. Decent sized seats, proper bar/buffet cars, corridor compartments instead of cramped airline seats, full length trains.

Cheaper prices too. And yes people use the trains to the extent that they are filled up and virtually all the seats are in use (but no one is standing).

Perhaps its time we got back to basics and operated the railway as part of our transport infrastructure, not as a business.

micksasse · Post by **micksasse** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:15 pm

Kevo00 wrote:I'm just back from a study trip to the Czech Republic which I went on by train, and found the proper trains used on EuroCity and Czech national expresses to be a breath of fresh air compared to the toy trains we are used to. Decent sized seats, proper bar/buffet cars, corridor compartments instead of cramped airline seats, full length trains.

Cheaper prices too. And yes people use the trains to the extent that they are filled up and virtually all the seats are in use (but no one is standing).

Perhaps its time we got back to basics and operated the railway as part of our transport infrastructure, not as a business.

Ah, drools at the thought of compartment coaches hauled by electric locomotives... and overnight services on which you can sleep in said compartments... Voyagers are the wrong concept and a profligate waste of scarce track capacity.

petermakosch · Post by **petermakosch** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:34 pm

im for it.
just one prob, i not like the Buffet bit, too small!

slipdigby · Post by **slipdigby** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:44 am

Kevo00 wrote:I'm just back from a study trip to the Czech Republic which I went on by train, and found the proper trains used on EuroCity and Czech national expresses to be a breath of fresh air compared to the toy trains we are used to. Decent sized seats, proper bar/buffet cars, corridor compartments instead of cramped airline seats, full length trains.

Czech railways have a larger loading guage than the UK for a start. From my limited experience of continental rolling stock combined with anecdotal evidence, people seem to be split 50/50 on seating quality and comfort on the continent. A bit like the IC70 vs Voyager seats debate in the UK. Personally my favourite seat of all time is that fitted to the Class 175, pure bliss

Many people prefer "saloon" accomodation to compartments. On a late night service I would much rather be able to see all and be seen.

Many people prefer a short train once an hour to a 14 coach monster 4 times a day. The current voyager debacle is not representive of the fact that the principle is wrong, only the execution.

Kevo00 wrote: Cheaper prices too. And yes people use the trains to the extent that they are filled up and virtually all the seats are in use (but no one is standing).

Czech railway's are cheap because outside Praugue, per capita incomes are pretty rubbish. Add to that the fact that the railways are heavily subsidised, and had been right up to the fall of the Berlin wall. Combined with low car ownership and indifferent infrastructure, the railways are the only practical form of communication for many people in the Czech republic. If rail fares were lowered to Czech comparable levels then the entire UK rail network would become even more untenable than it already is.

I can assure that plenty of express trains on the continent run either nearly empty or with standees for long distances. Equally, many express trains in the UK run to near capacity without trouble.

Kevo00 wrote: Perhaps its time we got back to basics and operated the railway as part of our transport infrastructure, not as a business.

Why not both? Theres no reason why (some) of the UK's rail network would run much better without treasury interference. The Czech railways are much similar to BR in the 1960's/70's than now (although vast steps have been made in the past 10 years towards modernisation), and should be judged on those standards. I don't think that a return to 40 year old standard of service would really cater for the market that exists now where the mantra in all forms of transport seems to be frequent and faster, outside of a few niches.

Taa
Slip

slipdigby · Post by **slipdigby** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:57 am

Sorry to reply to my own post, but found these that illustrate my argument quite well.

From Radio Praha (Prague)

"Parliament approves transformation of Czech Railways"
http://www.radio.cz/en/article/25457

"State to help railways pay debts"
http://www.radio.cz/en/article/10762

Slip

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:18 pm

Good points Slip,

The nature of the rail industry in each country has to be looked at with respect to external factors, such as the economics, politics, and infrastructure of that country - ie IN CONTEXT.

Voyagers may be classified by some 'traditionalists' as a bad thing - do the statistics make this out? If they are bad, then why are they:
A) amongst the most reliable trains in the country?
B) the perpetrators of a claimed 40% rise in passengers in one month?
Bad? Only the timetable was bad - the theory is sound, unfortunately its introduction was badly timed. Once all factors combined, there was only one result - late, overcrowded trains. Virgin Trains were not at fault - how were they to predict a massive rise in passengers? - but Railtrack/Network Rail must have some of blame for not delivering engineering solutions on time, resulting in TSRs and a lack of increase in speed on certain sections. Operation Princess was not, in theory, a waste of track capacity, but a response to the demands of the travelling public, who will not wait 2 hours for a train.

My limited experiences of European railways suggest that even on prime routes, you will only rarely get full trains, or at least running near capacity. Most don't seem to run more than half-full. However, only on mid-morning services out of London are UK trains quiet, the other way is often a different story!