Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway Route

General MSTS related discussion that doesn't really fit into any of the other specific forums.

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Christopher125
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Post by Christopher125 »

Perhaps this thread gives a hint of the problem.

If people didn't expect routes to be built, and instead had a go themselves instead of constantly going on about how famous routes ought to be done, then UKTS would be a much more vibrant place.

At the moment 3/4 of the discussion is made by people who have contributed little but are constantly asking asking asking for stuff. Now in a lot of people's cases this can be explained by not having enough time. I have no problem with that (I never have enough time :) ), but especially prevalent among the younger members are those who 'expect' to download trains and routes and are miffed when they are not done. The simple remedy to this is to 'have a go'. It really is not as difficult as it appears to be. For example, the Route editor is just plonking obejcts down on a bit of virtual countryside - anyone can do that. Making it look good requires a bit more expierience. You don't however, have to have been born with 3 arms, two heads etc to do it (despite common misconceptions)

I hope I am not being too negative, but instead I am trying to highlight how talk of 'it should be done' and 'why hasn't it done' just leads to pointless and annoying conversations which don't get the desired route, train or whatever nearer to completion. In fact having 20 people go on about how it should be done is more likely to put off expierienced route builders who understandably dont want to be put under the constant pressure of being asked when it is going to be ready by the newer members of the forum.

Can you see where I'm coming from?
(sorry for going a bit OT, but I feel it is a point worth making, if you disagree, feel free to flame me :wink: )

Chris 8)
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barrybryce01475
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Post by barrybryce01475 »

What gets me is why nobody has done the Trans-Siberian...

:lol:
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lateagain
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Post by lateagain »

Chris,

I see where you're coming from, but don't really see that anyone has "expected" anything in this thread. By definition any Train Sim user is going to be a Rail Fan. Who else would put up with such a cranky and quirky bit of software????

Time is an issue for all age groups. Youngsters have school/home work which they should be giving priority to. Others will have jobs and families making demand on their time and don't ever persuade yourself that your time will be your own when you retire!!! Real life has a guaranteed way of totally hindering creativity of any sort.

That said, you're right. We should all have a go. Most users, as can be seen by requests for help will play around with modifying sounds, cabviews and even .eng files. They can do this because they can back up the originals and follow any one of a variety of excellent tutorials. The sheer number of errors thrown up by running Route Riter, even on stuff that has been created and checked by experts is a fairly daunting prospect for those who want to go deeper.

There are excellent tutorials on many modifications (reskinning for example) and even a commercial guide on activity creation but I think what makes many of us hesitate is the lack of a complete tutorial on the tools. What's needed is a "Dummies Guide" to route creation.

The constant complaints about the tools from those that do use them is hardly an encouragement either. I often wonder how many people sat down to create a route, got quite a good way into it and gave up in frustration because of the limitations of the sim and the tools? I'm sure that not everyone who did this made announcements on the forum? Few can have Coltranes dogged determination and patience that's obvious to those who've followed his efforts to create the S&D.

The trouble may be that the standard that has been set by routes already released may actually make many give up before they start?

Geoff
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Post by jbilton »

lateagain wrote: That said, you're right. We should all have a go. Most users, as can be seen by requests for help will play around with modifying sounds, cabviews and even .eng files. They can do this because they can back up the originals and follow any one of a variety of excellent tutorials. The sheer number of errors thrown up by running Route Riter, even on stuff that has been created and checked by experts is a fairly daunting prospect for those who want to go deeper.
Geoff
Hi Geoff
Theres also the need of "Artistic flare".
Whilst building a route which will actually run is technically difficult, if it doesn't look right....it will not be popular.
Obviously there are two ways to get round this...the above and the other way, seemingly preferred by most authors, is to build a route to prototypical layout with custom buildings...unfortunately this takes a lot of time.
Cheers
Jon
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BluebellStepney
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Post by BluebellStepney »

Christopher125 wrote:The simple remedy to this is to 'have a go'. It really is not as difficult as it appears to be. For example, the Route editor is just plonking obejcts down on a bit of virtual countryside - anyone can do that. Making it look good requires a bit more expierience. You don't however, have to have been born with 3 arms, two heads etc to do it (despite common misconceptions)

Can you see where I'm coming from?
(sorry for going a bit OT, but I feel it is a point worth making, if you disagree, feel free to flame me :wink: )
I agree with this - I thinks another problem that we encounter is the situation where newcomers are put off by not only the complexity of the routes and/or models, but also by the programs themselves. I have been using g-max since December '04, and only now am I creating models which I deem to be of a reasonable standard. With schoolwork exams and what, it has let to very disjointed progress. This is likely to put off some users - the time it takes to make a good route or model takes a good while, and some don't have that sticking power.

lateagain wrote:The trouble may be that the standard that has been set by routes already released may actually make many give up before they start?
I think that this is very true, especialy when your first project is very basic, and then you compare it to some of the models from the site. It can be offputting for those without the staying power.


Tom
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Christopher125
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Post by Christopher125 »

Hi

I have found however, that the editors and tools (if you've got a hal-decent computer) should cause you little trouble if you use the program correctly - in 12 months of building Lyme Regis I have only now started having problems due to the sheer number of objects. The idea that it is excruciatingly hard is mainly put around by route builders whose route has just gone wrong, and they're anger spills onto the forum. Frankly, the only way you can find out if it is too difficult to do is 'have a go' like I said; listening to route builders is not always the most impartial source of information :wink:

Another point is that about how good a route is - if someone is so sure that they're route is rubbish that they stop doing it probably points more to a lack of commitment than a lack of skill etc, and if they are that easily persuaded then they are unlikely to ever finish it. When I had been doing foxfield for a few months, and I compared it to other routes I thought it was rubbish (I'm still not tottally convinced), but I had put in months of work, so dropping it wouldn't have been done for love nor money.

Finally, I think this thread is full of expectations that the route ought to have been done - how many times has people said that they are surprised it hasn't been done; unless someone actually does it instead of 'being surprised that no one else has done it' then like I said nothing's going to happen is it :wink:

Chris 8)
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Post by Tonysmedley »

Whilst I would not dream of criticising anyone for not producing a route, I think that it is legitimate for us to say what route we would have liked. at least it gives would be route builders an idea of what is popular.

But is route building as easy as suggested? Is it not the case that for most players, they would not know where to start! It is not like putting together a clockwork train set. Do you first draw a track plan, or paint a map. or what? These are the sort of things for which answers are not obviously available.as I see it. A from the start guide would be useful.
Tony (the old one)
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arabiandisco
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Post by arabiandisco »

I expect the fabled Micheal Vone/Abacus guide is the one to which you refer.

Fact is though, that having put in many many hours on a route, my efforts still look like something that Kuju/MS would have rejected for being "too basic". So I give up and leave it to the experts given that I have neither the time, the skills or the patience (to put up with endless crashes and corruptions of data) to make a semi-decent route. The learning curve to get to the current standard is a very steep one indeed.
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MuzTrem
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Post by MuzTrem »

I fully agree with the "have a go" argument. It's just that, having never used RE before, I didn't think I'd have enough skill to make a decent RHDR, so I started with something more basic-the garden festival railway. When I finish that, and if I think I've made a good job of it, I might try the RHDR, though with all the requests I suspect someone will get there before me.
Going back to earlier in the thread:
He has been VERY busy recently, so he's had no time.
I appreciate that-I'm often busy myself-all I was after was some sort of confirmation that he recieved and understood my PM. :)
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