(slightly OT) Whistleblowers BBC TV

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:24 pm

Oh no dont get me on buses....something else that the goverment made a mess of by de-regulation.
Strange really ....about 6 months ago we swapped postings on buses....where I seem to remember you disagreed... that the majority of buses on our roads today were/are poorly maintained due again to the drive of money.... above all else.
But...I'm proberbly missing the point here?
Like I've stated else where ....those "that count" dont give a flying fig....they dont use our roads either....and if they really have to, they'll be security escorted all the way.

petermakosch · Post by **petermakosch** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:21 pm

Here's a good place to continue about it?
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?t=35643

JohnKendrick · Post by **JohnKendrick** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:24 pm

If there's nothing to worry about, how come the track between York and Doncaster has been closed since last night and not expected to be back in service until at the earliest tomorrow..... due to a goods train derailing. Something must have been wrong somewhere.

Good job it wasn't an express passenger service

When the crash happened at Welwyn Railtrack were quick to blame everyone else, even the IRA, rather than accept it was their lack of checking.

The problems identified may not be widescale, but the former BR manager was horrified by the points identified in the prog. It isn't a matter of anyone winning or losing if someone's not been doing their job where safety is invloved.

John

biggles99 · Post by **biggles99** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:27 pm

it amazed me how they where supposed to check the track whilst driving a landrover along it.
must have good eyesight.

biggles99

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:46 pm

jbilton wrote:Oh no dont get me on buses....something else that the goverment made a mess of by de-regulation.
Strange really ....about 6 months ago we swapped postings on buses....where I seem to remember you disagreed... that the majority of buses on our roads today were/are poorly maintained due again to the drive of money.... above all else.
But...I'm proberbly missing the point here?
Like I've stated else where ....those "that count" dont give a flying fig....they dont use our roads either....and if they really have to, they'll be security escorted all the way.

I still disagree that the majority of buses are poorly maintained. 60 First PMT buses out of a fleet of many thousands of First buses, or even a couple of hundred of PMT buses, isn't a majority. My experience in first a PTE and a county transport department would appear to indicate there are a few rogue operators who seem to have a higher proportion of defect notices, and a larger proportion of operators who make every effort to keep their vehicles roadworthy, but may occasionally . things up - and the PMT incident was by all accounts a .-up rather than financially driven conspiracy. The loss of 60 buses from their licence cost them a lot more money in cancelled services, lost revenue, lost contracts, bad publicity and having to prove to the Traffic Commissioner things are better than any attempts to cut costs. In the case of my school bus incident, the operator went bankrupt.

There are some operators who fly by the seat of their pants, but not a majority.

alan2 · Post by **alan2** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:20 pm

alot of the common road users. are worse than anything you have ever seen.

for the number of miles of track in the Uk and the load haul miles. the program seemed to identify a few problems in the covered area.

I agree that the system should be not run for profit. etc.

I did not watch the program, (asleep).

I have seen some serious mistakes in the "write up" from the program. eg. the clips missing from track sections. this is serious enough to have redued the operating speed to below 25Mph. (preserved railways are required to have better track maintenance than that. track clips can be hammered back in quite easily. this to me was a major thing that was reported and was serious.

The mention that a section of track could "look wrong" but still be perfectly safe is complete talking out of one's rear end.

the railways have gotten the raw end of the deal here but. I would like to see a investigation into some of the bus compainies at somepoint from the BBC. also some from the road maintainence trams....

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:59 pm

For an example of wonderful buses, come and view Banga Travel. Just a few days after being fined quite a few grand for not running probably (ie terminating early on a lot of services), one of their buses exploded leaving its depot. Not too good. But then, most of their buses are relics anyway. Mark may have had some experiences with them working for Centro.

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:36 pm

jbilton wrote:Quick answer to this YES...........its already happened 3 times....what more proof do you need.

PS
I dont know if you could have even seen the programme.....but that wouldn'y stop you from commenting anyway...would it Barry.

PPS Yes I am politically motivated....the railways should be owned by the people for the people.......not for monatary gain of businessmen who never even dream of travelling by train.

Perhaps you'd like to tell me where it happened three times since the privatisation of the railways; instances where sloppy and slipshod maintenance were proven to be the cause of the 'disaster' - disaster equivalent to a train falling off the Forth Bridge.

No, I didn't see the program - but I wasn't commenting on the programme per se. I saw your post and I saw the rebuttal letter, and that was the basis of the comments. The sort of journalism that presents only one side of the case, that presents it without even offering the subject the chance of rebuttal is not journalism, it's sensationalism. What is it that the producers of such journalism fear if they offer the chance of rebuttal? Could it possibly be that the viewers might actually decide that the point made by the programme is bogus? That sort of thing is, if you like, a video lynching. And your comments bear that out.

The railways were owned by the people and for the people; they were a nationalised industry for almost fifty years, and look what happened. The rail unions saw it as an opportunity to hold the public to ransom for outrageous pay claims every few years; the 'owners' - the general public - refused to travel on the railways unless they had no choice because the trains were so bloody awful. Of course the reason half of them were so bad was that the people, in the form of the government, refused to stump up more and more money for a worse and worse service. In many cases the state of the trains was the fault of those who complained the loudest. Since privatisation - admittedly not done in the best fashion - TOCs have made massive improvements in trains and services, and passenger figures have risen. Those businessmen who are making such 'monetary gain' at the expense of passengers have actually invested many millions of pounds (and dollars, yen and euros) in the pious hope that they might make some return - maybe making 5c for every $10 invested; it's called business; it's how the world works. Communism and socialism, which it would seem that you would prefer, don't work. The USSR proved that.

Oh, and there were accidents, big ones, under nationalised railways, too.

dwv1968 · Post by **dwv1968** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:46 pm

I'm not condoning what was seen to be going on in the programme, but who's to say that any other form of transport is safer than travelling by rail?

I seem to recall that there was a witch-hunt a few years ago about the road-worthiness of coaches and all it takes is one poorly maintained HGV and there's a major pile up on the motorways.

Similar undercover programmes have revealed MOT testers and mechanics taking shortcuts and wasnt there a big hoo-hah recently about avaiation maintenance standards?

In short, rail transport is as safe, if not safer than any other form of transport, as least as far as fatalities are concerned. Journalists do seem to be making a bee-line for the sofest target theses days - or is it the easiest story?

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:49 pm

RedTez wrote: The Nudehamster you are a very rude and self oppinionated GOF.

Yup. Guilty as charged. Just as rude and self-opinionated as almost everyone else on here.

There is no excuse for you to throw rude and disrespectful claims and accusations at anybody expresing their views on a forum in a respectful and thoughtful manner - even if you completely disagree with them. Why cant you fluff abit and be nice, for a change. If you want to throw your weight around in words, go do it on a doom3 site where i am sure you will find pundits well able to master your nastyness and give you far better than you can dish out, i prefer that these forums could stay within the confines of polite and responsible debate than name calling and insultive label wielding.

Ah. I see. so someone who quotes the rebuttal letter rom the rail authority and then makes a sarcastic comment about it is being thoughtful and respectful? I suggest you review what consitutes thoughtful comment before you accuse me of rudeness.

What I said concerned the style of journalism, and the political views of a poster who supported them. Yes, I disagree with him. I disagree with you too. That is my right; much as it is your right to think of me as a rude and self-opinionated GOF. The difference is, you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable for you to insult me, but not for me to use similarly tempered language in referring to someone else.

And I have no wish to visit a Doom3 site; why should I? - I have no interest in Doom3, nor of the opinions of those who play it. My interests are trains, and railways, and TrainSimming; that's why I'm here.

You can't have it both ways. If it's OK for you to insult me, then it's perfectly OK for me to insult you and anyone else I care to.

dwv1968 · Post by **dwv1968** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:50 pm

jbilton wrote:the railways should be owned by the people for the people.......not for monatary gain of businessmen who never even dream of travelling by train.

Care to give your reasons for saying that ?

mickoo · Post by **mickoo** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:04 pm

Barry,

Well from my understanding, little as it is as most of the reports we get are never true to the bone...two recent incidents were caused by track defects...whether down to poor maintenance or just bad luck ( unseen fatigue or some such generally hidden flaw ) remains to be seen.

The two that stick in my mind are

Wellyn Garden City :- loose facing point tie rod or missing fish plates ?
Hatfield :- damaged running rails ?, loose clips ?.

Both these are as l remember accidents caused by failing maintenance...l'll gladly stand corrected on both these instances but that was my understanding of these two incidents.

The 3rd could be Paddington but that was driver error, thus falls outside this remit.

Kindest regards

Michael

Post by **martinhodgson** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:08 pm

Welwyn Garden City? Doyou mean Potters Bar?

mickoo · Post by **mickoo** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:30 pm

Sorry, yes thats the one

, there all the same to me on the GNER, never could remember all the names LOL, mind l was only at Hatfield the other weekend, boy do they hammer through there !.

Best regards

Michael

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:55 pm

Hi
Thanks Micheal....they're the ones I am reffering to....I do include the Paddington crash...as although it was driver error....that signal had been SPAD 109 times ....and still nothing was done.

Redtez....thanks for your defence....and I fully agree with your comments on the Nude nuissance.
He's on the mis-interpritation that if he shouts loudest we'll start to agree with him.
Its a bit like dealing with an old guard dog....lots of growling and siliva...the louder it growls the more scared it really is.

My comment about investment businessmen is based on my belief that some of the largest investers in our privatised railways do not travel by their own trains....in fact they do not travel via public transport at all.

Cheers
Jon