Class Locos

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:08 pm

Zackybong1 wrote:Thank goodness we didn't get into DMU/EMU territory. Could have been here all night!

Oh go on.
You know you want to.

Zackybong1 · Post by **Zackybong1** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:23 pm

simont wrote:ZB's post ia just about spot on, except:

201-210 - Diesel electric mu
220-254 - High speed/intercity diesel multiple units
2xx are all DEMUs, as far as I'm aware (Voyagers are DEMUs).

The numbers were quite different at the time they were invented as I wouldn't call HSTs or Class 251

a DEMU.

The times have changed though. We have since the 70s moved into "second generation" territory. I think maybe thats why 220/221 were chosen for the new toys as they are in that grey area. What differentiates them undoubtedly though is the use of powercars. [/i]

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:53 pm

You give HST's, MU set numbers and you've got a MU

252 001

253 001

254 001

Sound like MU's to me

Zacks description sounded about right to me and concise, so don't pull his leg

He showed the basic numbering system and mentioned classes which have disappeared.

I saw a copy of the first suggested numbering system while working on the railway around 1970. The class were divided into class 1 to 5 as had previously been used. The order was then by power. A 47 was more powerful than a 40.

Future additions were added in numerical order but gaps were left for further builds of older loco' designs or to denote a completely new class.

For example the first DEMU's were class 210 and the next 220, then 221.

And for Mr. Bilton, of course they're less powerful than the 250 class of DEMU's, 252, 253 and 254

Seriously, the HST's MU classifications could've been meant to apply to the coach sets.

Many may not know that originally, DMU's trailer vehicles were given seperate TOPS codes although rarely used.

Examples are Class 101 trailer brake seconds were class 168 and trailer composites were class 171. The driving trailers built for the Glocerster and Pressed Steel class 122 and 121 'Bubble cars', were class 149's.

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:07 pm

johndibben wrote:For example the first DEMU's were class 210 and the next 220, then 221.

So no 201's then ?

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:42 pm

Forgot the Southern again

Further proof of some logic in the BR class numbering though

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:46 pm

I think the MU codes are much much clearer cut than the loco codes, but I guess they have several hundred numbers to play with than the locos...

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:19 am

johndibben wrote:You give HST's, MU set numbers and you've got a MU

252 001

253 001

254 001

Sound like MU's to me

And for Mr. Bilton, of course they're less powerful than the 250 class of DEMU's, 252, 253 and 254

Seriously, the HST's MU classifications could've been meant to apply to the coach sets.

I've always thought so......as the "Locos" were class 43 and number 43001 ect.....and the 253 numbers only put on the front for convience

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:55 am

The loco' numbers must be confusing to anyone looking for a pattern now adays.

It was the intention that HST's remained in formation with their power cars but that soon went out the window

They were listed without power cars by 1980.

Noting trains past Teignmouth in 1980 saw 253 008 go east to Paddington and west to Plymouth half an hour later

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:00 am

Suddenly occurred to me the 'class' 43 meant little as coaches were numbered 40xxx, 41xxx and 42xxx and so the 43xxx slotted in with the rest.

The 44xxx Trailer Brake Seconds came later.

simont · Post by **simont** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:06 pm

I guess you could argue that HSTs are units, the DB ICE1s, for example, which work a similar way, are classified as EMUs. But HSTs never carry their 25x numbers anymore (as far as I'm aware), and haven't for a long time, so they tend to be classed as locos and coaches.

Either way, really.

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:10 pm

simont wrote:I guess you could argue that HSTs are units, the DB ICE1s, for example, which work a similar way, are classified as EMUs. But HSTs never carry their 25x numbers anymore (as far as I'm aware), and haven't for a long time, so they tend to be classed as locos and coaches.

Either way, really.

You can't run two sets together, so I suggest theres no 'multiple' in it.

(The ATP and E* are two halfs running together so they are a bit different.)

simont · Post by **simont** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:18 pm

I deliberately avoided the word 'multiple'... I guess they are units, though, you don't see a power car, or their coaches, running alone, or with anything else (I'm sure someone will prove me wrong... although that picture of the MML 42 pulling freight doesn't count... so I'll say very rarely then).

I guess it's the fact that there's no category for units that aren't multiple (because they're so few) that causes all the confusion.

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:23 pm

simont wrote: I guess it's the fact that there's no category for units that aren't multiple (because they're so few) that causes all the confusion.

Basing it on what they did with the HST, they do.

Its called locos

simont · Post by **simont** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:30 pm

But before that, they were units... I agree, it's not a problem either way, it's just the reason we're having this discussion: they're a bit of an oddity.

Anonymizeruk · Post by **Anonymizeruk** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:52 pm

I also remember reading that, to begin with, the HST's were to be classified as multiple units, but later they became Class 43 locos + coaches.

My logic (time to worry people!) would say they could be classified as multiple units, due to the fact the HST is always a set. Always 2 power cars, and the same type of coaches.

Would I be right in thinking this kind of reasoning applies to the Eurostar EMUs as well? i.e power car at each end, and non-powered coaches? I really dont know!