MSTS2 E-mail

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:50 pm

With reputedly 1,000,000 copies sold I can't see MTS was a complete disaster. It probably didn't make as much as some of the headline titles or OEM licencing of the Windows O/S.

Assuming it has been cancelled and the quoted email is not another vexatious hoax, I guess we will never know the reason. I know MS has taken a few hits recently with $500 million dollar anti trust fines, but in the scheme of things, paying someone $2 - 3 million to re-write Train Sim would be peanuts. Perhaps recent security concerns have led to MS reviewing its involvement with simulator products (though I can't see them throwing the FS franchise away), or withdrawal of co-operation by partner railways.

I'm still depressed about it if true but I guess the important thing is to be pragmatic. Support MTS1 "as is", support the other programmes (no name, no pack drill) and continue to lobby. Who knows, 5 years from now the situation may change and another MTS in some form might happen. After all, it's taken 10 years but another version of Transport Tycoon is in production...

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:21 pm

I think that possibly MSTS could be handed over to a payware developer, don't have a clue which though, or possibly a consotorium of several developers, to either a) restart from the v1 code or b) finish off v2 and then release it, at a price which is enough money for them to make a profit for their efforts but not massive (I think MSTS1 is now Â£19.99 or something now?)

jains15 · Post by **jains15** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:16 pm

surely there's a gap in the market now so we might see a non MS and non Auran simulator go into production? im sure some shady publisher/developer somewhere is watching this and thinking "hmmmm maybe we can cash in on this"?

I dunno the notion of a whole new genre dying (at least msts wise) within 5 years of its invention seems a bit strange. There's obviously money to be made so im sure some1 will step up!

anyway im off to buy TRS...

jon

LucaZone · Post by **LucaZone** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:49 pm

I also heard from various sources that MSTS2 was cancelled.

Which, in the midst of all the current discussion in this thread, brings me back to one a topic I made a few months ago. Though at the time it was quickly shoned by most, it seems alot more relevent now.....

maybe we could take a fresh look at the possibilities it could have?
Should MSTS become open source?

One of the biggest arguements was that MS would never let 'so called amateurs' fix their errors. But if the Genre/game is going to be dropped by MS, how could they complain, if the users of the game want to continue?

Garthion · Post by **Garthion** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:29 pm

IF and only if Microsoft have shelved MsTS2 and for security reasons as mentioned earlier in the thread, wouldn't they also shelve flight sim, Links (Golf) and other simulation type games, for giving terrorists plans to important places.
This seems a really stupid reason to shelve a project, and if they have shelved it for financial reasons, they would make more money with V2 by users of V1 wishing to upgrade for better features and other improvements of V2 over V1.
If Microsoft have shelved V2 then I think it is because they think it is not going to sell and will give them a bad image. Okay, if they don't want it then one of the other games manufacturers Like EA would probably do a better job of producing it.

I myself am quite happy to remain with V1 for the forseeable future using any route I can get that will not take up too much of my hard drive or will further push back the bounrdies of Train Simming.

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:30 pm

V2 has been shelved due to project cost considerations. Potential sales not taken into account apparently. No other sim is affected.

MichaelGreenhill · Post by **MichaelGreenhill** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:32 am

Project cost? MS have something like US$40b in their bank accounts! I'm sure they can afford to part with US$2-3m (also considering that the MS v Sun lawsuits have stopped - that'll save them several hundred million a year)

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:20 am

I would like to see them give the program back to Kuju and let them finish version 1.
I doubt things like changing cabs, turntables and circular paths can be changed without a major rewrite of the core program, but better error trapping, an easier editor and adding the things that were not implemented but already built in would give the game a new lease of life.

A bit of co-operation with the users telling us what they can and can't do rather than the total silence since day 1 would be nice.

Co-operation could result in farming out route writing and stock building while Kuju improves the game.
Then we might see MSTS (or KTS) version 1.5 with 6 routes and stock from the top experts which won't crash without telling us what we did wrong and how to avoid it.

I can't see it happening tho.

It's Microsoft's ball and they don't want to play with it but they arn't going to let anybody else play either.

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:55 am

I agree largely with IanMac
It would nice if MS gave the code to somebody to sort out; maybe a consortium of knowledgeable amateurs, maybe a games house, maybe Kuju, just so long as we got a reasonably stable, interactive simulation out of it. Things like turntables, double cabs, would be nice but proper error-trapping is to me, the sort of thing that ought to have been implemented in the fiorst place.
However, this is Micro$oft, with an attitude of secrecy and paranoia even greater than dubya's, so Ian's comments are probably right on the ball (pun intended).
The other possibility I can see would be for some enterprising group of programmers to come up with a core engine which would produce the results we want and be compatible with MSTS present file/data structure.
I can't see that happening either.

MichaelGreenhill · Post by **MichaelGreenhill** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:17 am

When you look at all the negativity aimed towards MS on these forums, it's no wonder that they've been inclined to withdraw MSTS2

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:16 am

ISTR Kuju were getting out of the gaming (at least PC) scene to focus on portable electronics (mobile phones, WAP's etc.). It's highly unlikely they would be interested in taking back something they couldn't get to work in the first place.

Given the money being spent by MS in other areas I find it quite incredible that cost alone would result in cancellation of the project, even if the Kuju code was scrapped and a completely new sim developed. And while I appreciate the need to pay professional programmers, artists etc., the sum of $2-3 million dollars is out of all proportion to what the developers of programmes like Zusi, BVE, Loksim etc. must have spent to make their software.

Ref Mike's point, yes there has been some negative feedback towards MS and Kuju at times, but nothing like the outright hostility sometimes seen on Train-sim.com. Much of the criticism has been rightly aimed at bugs and problems within the programme - if it was issued without these being corrected, then you've got to expect a bit of flak. On the flipside, I would see the existence of this site, all the rolling stock and routes (payware and freeware) which have been produced as immensely positive feedback and support of the product, in spite of the flaws.

All we can hope is that perhaps 5 or 6 years down the road, there is a change of heart or personnel at MS and a new train sim is put back on the agenda.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:51 am

Microsoft have never been enthusiastic about games M.s.f.s was not originally developed by them it was a private company and Microsoft bought them out but kept the original team employed.
The bottom line with M.S.T.S. is it didnt sell enough copies to warrant a second version.In my view if route builders now work on commercial routes for M.S.T.S. we will have the "We want everything for nowt society"crying all over the forums again.

MichaelGreenhill · Post by **MichaelGreenhill** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:17 am

Didn't sell enough copies? It sold over 1,000,000 copies, didn't it? If I was in charge or marketing for MSTS, I'd be pretty happy with that number, considering it was the first venture into that field by anyone serious (ie MS or Auran, or anyone apart from backyard code hacks).

Also, if it didn't sell enough copies, then why did MS commission the second version in the first place?

Vern, I agree that all the freeware add-ons released is a sign of how much the community supports this add-on - however, all the "typical MS", "this is Micro$oft, with an attitude of secrecy and paranoia even greater than dubya's" etc comments. People seem to be quite happy to critisise the company, but drop to their knees and kiss the shoes of the game

Having said that, I do doubt that MS will turn the MSTS2/1 code over to the open-source community. It'd be much more simple to cancel the product then to market the source, create the installers, etc...

I'm positive that MSTS2 won't be coming out in the near future - however, it MAY come out sometime within the next few years, probably after Longhorn is released. Perhaps they had to take code-hacks off MSTS2 and put them onto Longhorn in order to get the latter out on time?

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:55 am

You confirmed what i said in the original post 1,000,000 copies is a drop in the ocean to a company like Microsoft and not worth the hastle to produce another version.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:07 am

And while i,m on my soapbox heres another reason M.S.T.S is not worth another version unlike All the versions of M.S.F.S. Trainsim as not spawned anything like the number of add on companys and thats an important issue.Take a look at the Avsim site there are new companys springing up all the time with scenery add ons,Aircraft add ons,allsorts of commercial stuff.Now how many commercial companys has trainsim been responsible for?