Do you still have confidence that MSTS 2 will be released?

General MSTS related discussion that doesn't really fit into any of the other specific forums.

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Do you think MSTS 2 WILL be released?

Yes definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY!
3
7%
Yes but not for another 18 months minimum...
22
52%
Naaaaah I don't think it will be released atall now.
17
40%
 
Total votes: 42

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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

MICROSOFT TRAIN SIMULATOR TWO, DUE APRIL 2004
I've just read this and that's good enough ror me :D

I've heard all sorts of rumours, all of which have been dismissed or so old as to be completely unreliable. The sources have been very unlikely MS 'insiders'.

If anyone wishes to tell the members anything that can be proven, please do it?

No NDA talk, or can't disclose sources, or we'll be straying into the old MI5 tricks area of mischief, fantasy and creating an misleading aura of self-importance.

Thank heavens for Trainz in that respect. Up front and talking to us. I suspect MS would do the same if they had anything definate in mind.

The remarks about Trainz recently and in the past have shown that any knowledge of the product is based on heresay or the original Trainz package in the shops and has been way out of date, as I suspect, are the rumours about MSTS2 :D
Goingnorth
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Post by Goingnorth »

johndibben wrote:
MICROSOFT TRAIN SIMULATOR TWO, DUE APRIL 2004
I've just read this and that's good enough ror me :D

I've heard all sorts of rumours, all of which have been dismissed or so old as to be completely unreliable. The sources have been very unlikely MS 'insiders'.

If anyone wishes to tell the members anything that can be proven, please do it?

No NDA talk, or can't disclose sources, or we'll be straying into the old MI5 tricks area of mischief, fantasy and creating an misleading aura of self-importance.

Thank heavens for Trainz in that respect. Up front and talking to us. I suspect MS would do the same if they had anything definate in mind.

The remarks about Trainz recently and in the past have shown that any knowledge of the product is based on heresay or the original Trainz package in the shops and has been way out of date, as I suspect, are the rumours about MSTS2 :D
I reckon MSTS 2 has been out since October as planned, but renamed TRS2004! :) :) :)
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bigvern
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Post by bigvern »

MTS2 is either Zusi 3.0 or they have bought the rights to Rail3d 2k3!!

Actually I know, MTS2 is going to be retro.

They've bought Simudrive....

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1crick14a
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Post by 1crick14a »

Simudrive Vern.......that was Hoppys simulator as I remember I gave
him the final pay off a while back, still have disks around somewhere it
was good even tho it had no graphics especially for gradients power figures and such..........R
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bigvern
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Post by bigvern »

Yes that's right, "Hoppy"!

I wonder what ever happened to him, I know at one time he was thinking of re-working Simudrive into something more modern. It was a good programme apart from the total lack of decent graphics or any sound beyond a few squeaks and pips from the PC Speaker.
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saddletank
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Post by saddletank »

Sounds like Trainz.

(runs for cover)
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

Hee hee :D

How times change? Mentioning Trainz used to be a hazardous business.

Rob's, bought his copy and probably has SP1 by now.

He's probably doing what I did and going doh!, why did I buy this?

The first thing you see is the . 37 and HST.

But .... a bit of patience and a longer look, especially at the tech docs and the possiblities unfold before your eyes.

The download station also has some wonderful models which put the default one's to shame.

The source files covering samples of almost everythng are the icing on the cake.

I'm sure I could make passengers appear in their seats by treating them as freight but I'm too lazy and I'll wait and see what SP2 brings :D
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Post by wirralsimon »

I've no problem with anyone mentioning Trainz.

However, those of us with long enough memories will remember that the Phillips V2000 and Betamax were arguably technically superior to VHS, but VHS had the software.

It's not a great analogy as nobody could afford two videos back then, but even if I have Trainz by the time MSTS finally appears I can't really pretend I won't place my order for MSTS2 weeks in advance, and I think the same will go for most Trainz users.

Simon
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saddletank
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Post by saddletank »

I have 3 main problems with Trainz:

1) The graphics just look funny. To me the world it depicts looks too cartoony and not as real as MSTS (and the MSTS world does not look that real).

2) Practically impossible to write scenarios unluess you are a rocket scientist. Many promising Trainz routes don't have much shelf life as there are no scenarios written for them.

3) The Auran download station and the way that Auran take copyright of all freeware uploaded there - then sell it back to you as part of Trs2004. That particularly annoys me and on principle I won't buy software from a company that is effectively stealing freeware authors work.

I don't think the route editing and tracklaying utils of either MSTS or Trainz is better that their competitor.
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

saddletank wrote:I have 3 main problems with Trainz:

1) The graphics just look funny. To me the world it depicts looks too cartoony and not as real as MSTS (and the MSTS world does not look that real).

2) Practically impossible to write scenarios unluess you are a rocket scientist. Many promising Trainz routes don't have much shelf life as there are no scenarios written for them.

3) The Auran download station and the way that Auran take copyright of all freeware uploaded there - then sell it back to you as part of Trs2004. That particularly annoys me and on principle I won't buy software from a company that is effectively stealing freeware authors work.
1) To me MSTS scenery looks cartoony. Honest, I'm not being awkward :D I've heard it said and agree. Buildings are 'plonked' on the 'orrible ground textures. With Trainz the the buildings and the loco's 'merge', perhaps too much? The overall effect when combined with the weather is stunning. Model a place with 'weather' :D

2) A further inspection of the new tools in the surveyor in TRS2004 might prove useful in regard to that. Rocket scientist I'm not but I understand it.

3) I figure anything uploaded to any site is surrendering the copyright in practice, if not in law. The whole Auran Trainz ethos is based on the idea of sharing files. That's why I don't think wholly MSTS minded people would prove beneficial to Trainz as there's far more emphasis on 'ownership' of files.

There's plenty of room for both and their differences simply broaden the experience.
Goingnorth
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Post by Goingnorth »

I'm just having a play with it Trainz now.

I have to say, TRS2004 feels different to Trainz UTC (or previous). If feels much more MSTS like, which is a good move.

What I don't like:

Some of the trains wheels STILL don't go round on some locos. Auran ought to be upgrading this feature ASAP. However, the steam locos are a treat. Really, seriously, better than anything in MSTS.

I don't like the fact that scenarios are hard to write, which puts me off. I may, one day, be bothered to learn it. You can do some brill things but it looks like a lot of effort.

Actually the Auran site is a misnomer. You don't HAVE to upload anything to the site, you can still do payware, or free downloads from your own site. It's their software packaging utility that confuses many. They ought to change the KUID system.

Some bits seem difficult to get to. I love the MSTS activity structure, and I think if trainz moved toward an easy to create, clear, activity structure it would be a lot better.

Technically the software is FAR superior to MSTS. you have bump maps on the graphics, turntables, fixed and spline track, better lighting, smoke animations, freight loads that actually load and unload, you can drive from either end and very shortly: Passengers. In fact you have everything and more that has been promised in MSTS 2.

I had UTC, I wasn't all that keen, although I thought it had potential. This has a lot more.

As a final note, the signalling is just as . in Trainz as it is in MSTS. But TRS now supports semaphores and all things steam.
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

(Thud)

Sorry, I fainted :D

I'd go along with all of that. Must've bumped my head :wink:

Whilst scanarios in the MSTS sense of the word arn't easy, there's tools to create sets of orders for the loco's in the game. Limited to seven though.

Bump mapping mentioned .... at last :D

Along with some other features, only someone who's actually bought, used and studied it would notice.

The tech docs are very interesting for anyone wishing to get the most out of it. Links to loads of samples as well. They positively ooze encouragement to develop your own stuff.
Goingnorth
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Post by Goingnorth »

johndibben wrote:(Thud)

Sorry, I fainted :D

I'd go along with all of that. Must've bumped my head :wink:

Whilst scanarios in the MSTS sense of the word arn't easy, there's tools to create sets of orders for the loco's in the game. Limited to seven though.

Bump mapping mentioned .... at last :D

Along with some other features, only someone who's actually bought, used and studied it would notice.

The tech docs are very interesting for anyone wishing to get the most out of it. Links to loads of samples as well. They positively ooze encouragement to develop your own stuff.
There's no doubt about it, it's very deep. The paper manual really, isn't all that good, in the sense that you really have to start reading the PDF docs.

I found the little activity creator thing in the surveyor module. Although it's basic, it does provide a little flexibility. It's actually better in some ways than the MSTS activity making, because it provides trigger points for things like weather.

Apart from the scripted scenarios, which are far superior to any MSTS activity, the basic 'game' is still follows the model railway principle. IE you make a consist, slap it on the track, jump from train to train. Where as MSTS is pure sim, although as it's been pointed out a zillion times before(and I bet Kuju, MS and others are sick of it) in a simplified form compared to the real thing.

There seems so much to explore in TRS and you are left with the impression that is the basis of it was glued and screwed together in a little more structured way, with a big heavy manual, it would be even better than it is. For example, I know there is fixed track sections, but the manuals never talk about them. Some die hard MSTS are put off by the 'basic' spline track system in Trainz, you would think they might make more of this. Also I know there is latitude and Longitude support, but that's not really mentioned. It leaves the impression for serious simmers that it's still a model railway sim, an overhang from previous incarnations. When really, certainly for steam, given the right support and effort which scripted scenarios a very serious route could be built: With turntables, industry, train announcements, dynamic routing and so on. For a steam route (which is a pain in the arse for MSTS, because of the track system and lack of turntables) it's perfect.

If people support it, by say leaning a package that can import into Gmax (or Gmax itself) and import into MSTS and Trainz, things can only get better. The Trainz people should stop bashing MSTS and produce models for that platform as well. If someone is really clever they could make a converter that would convert models (from say OBJ or 3DS) for both.

I can't help thinking Trainz would sell more if it shipped with 6 prototype routes.
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Post by lynnfizzy »

XPTE wrote:
40058 wrote:18 months minimum I reckon, but IMHO I don't care whether it's released or not as the efforts of the UKTS community with the quality of freeware plus the efforts of Bluearrow etc will pre long the life of MSTS1 for a good few years yet...

40058.
Too right. 8)

Not forgetting the excellent upcoming routes by Europeanbahn too. Who needs MSTS 2?
I'm still getting used to MSTS1 so i hope they don't bring it out yet!

What new routes are being done by Europebahn then?
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bigvern
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Post by bigvern »

I've been having a little play around with Surveyor since SP1 came out and there are a lot more objects etc. in there, including some neat modular station kits and lots of new track textures. If only MTS had spawned with something like modular parts and a good all round selection of buildings etc. then our first routes wouldn't have had to use the unsuitable S&C etc. stations anywhere.

I guess that sums up the different approach. MS provided a programme offering specific routes and the parts/textures that came with those and nothing more. Trainz OTOH offers a good collection of generic parts from various parts of the world enabling a reasonable route to be put together with nothing more than the default items.

Where Trainz falls down, IMHO, is the obvious issue of Scenario scripting (as mentioned above) as a saved session is still pretty limited, reliance on G-Max as the only available 3D modelling package and the lack of any real interface with real world data such as DEM, ability to place markers etc. (And yes I do know about HOG, but the results using some of the 90m DEM were not that good - you thought MTS was bad with crevasses).

However I am prepared to give Trainz a go, particularly if the upcoming SP2 passenger patch addresses some of the issues.
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