HST 2- Why Bother?

[petermakosch]

Ive often pondered on this:

Why bother making a new type of HST when it'll never replace the original, and when the HST's are possibly one of the longest working Loco's in thw world?
Why dont they just re-build new engines, re-build the Chassis, and everything,so it's still an HST, just a newer one. Same with Deltic's and other past Loco's.

A possibility is though, is that they are not very efficient, so Siemens (who are makin the new version) will make this new HST a DEL (Diesel-Electric Loco) or something swanky. Do we think First will have it exclusive, like the 157 and 180?
Pete

[ash888]

I agree with you. But to tell you the truth i'm not sure which method would be the cheapest to the TOC's . But when these marverlous HST's leave our tracks for good . Trainspotting will never be quite the same again without hearing the whoosh and the scream these icons make when they pull away from stations. I heard that GNER have gave their HST 125's a overhaul not so long ago (2001 i think ?). So the GNER class 43 hst's will be with us for a little longer. But what will replace these afterwards i don't know . But prehaps the hst-2 may be an IC125 lookalike (I hope) but with higher specs than what was availible in the 1970s when these mean machines (HST125's) were new . But i just strongly hope that the HST-2 does not look like the prototype jet-train that bombardier was demonstrating in the usa no so long ago . As that train is bog ugly .

BTW. Pete your class 170 turbostar sounds for msts are great and keep up the great work with your forthcoming class 222 in Midland Mainline Livery .

cheers

[slipdigby]

Ive often pondered on this:

Why bother making a new type of traction when it'll never replace the original, and when horses are possibly one of the longest working forms of traction in the world?
Why dont they just breed bigger horses, re-build the shafts, and everything,so it's still a horse, just a newer one. Same with mules and other past forms of traction.

A possibility is though, is that they are not very efficient, so Stephenson's (who are makin the new version) will make this new horse a STL (Steam-Traction Loco) or something swanky. Do we think Wylam will have it exclusive, like Wylam Dilly and Puffing Billy?

A Luddite
circa 1820

[Goingnorth]

Ive often pondered on this:

Why bother making a new type of HST when it'll never replace the original, and when the HST's are possibly one of the longest working Loco's in thw world?
Why dont they just re-build new engines, re-build the Chassis, and everything,so it's still an HST, just a newer one. Same with Deltic's and other past Loco's.

A possibility is though, is that they are not very efficient, so Siemens (who are makin the new version) will make this new HST a DEL (Diesel-Electric Loco) or something swanky. Do we think First will have it exclusive, like the 157 and 180?
Pete

Well, I think the biggest reason is they are completely knackered. When I first started buying rail mags in about 1986/7, there was an article on the HSTs saying that most of them had done 3 million miles! I expect that total is 7 or 8 million by now - so if you think your car is knackered at 100,000 miles think again!

The design of the train, although good, is very old. Development work started in the late 1960s and the prototype train came out in 1972. Service started some 5-6 years later on the GWML, then the ECML. The Midland main line didn't get HSTs until the mid-1980s and cross country south and NW the mid 1990s. Both lines having semaphore signalling until quite recently and lower line speeds.

Technology has moved on leaps and bounds since and it's likely HSTs would be push pull or more likely distributed power. The engine powering traction motors along the train. 2 locos is expensive.

Because of the rail privatisation process, which favours cheap and nasty multiple units, it's highly likely HST2 may never come about. The voyagers have taken over the cross country routes and the GWML HSTs are likely to be replaced either by gas turbine trains or another voyager type train. Electrification is not favoured, mainly because it's a long term commitment, on a short term railway. And there has been reliability problems on the cheaply wired ECML.

Expect more multiple units and if the high speed lines are ever built, 'off the shelf' TGV derivatives!

[pgmetcalf]

I think they just do it to give somebody a job and raise taxes. Polititions are much the same - they just make silly laws to justify their own living.

[tubemad]

well i think all the 180s will re-place fgw 43s. will we see GNER liveried 220s re-placing GNER hsts? better not!

[FGWDriver929]

The way I understand FGW's situatuation is as follows.

The 180's will be used for stopping services to oxford, cheltenham/gloucester, Bristol and a limited service to Exeter.

The turbo's currently under Thames will provide much the same service as they do now.

HST's will be used for the work they were designed for, express services calling at principal stopping points only. To Swansea, Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter and Bristol.

HST2 is supposed to be on mainline duties in 2007. Clearly that isn't going to happen. I tend to agree with GNER's opinion that the earliest we can expect a HST replacement will be 2010.

I have it from a reasonable source that HST2 will be a 2+9 configuration (2 power cars and 9 coaches) although whether it will be a gas turbine engine, i have no idea

Having said that, this is all just rumour and hearsay, and I don't think anybody truly knows whats going to happen just yet.

[Alexcutts]

typical :p

non of the posts show up, so I assumed it was some wierd joke. Add my 'blank' post and they all do

[Stooopidperson]

Technology has moved on leaps and bounds since and it's likely HSTs would be push pull or more likely distributed power. The engine powering traction motors along the train. 2 locos is expensive.

Why can't they operate with 2 locos anyway, at least if one broke down, the other could still work! And if it would be a DMU, then wouldn't each car have an engine making it more expensive?

[Goingnorth]

Technology has moved on leaps and bounds since and it's likely HSTs would be push pull or more likely distributed power. The engine powering traction motors along the train. 2 locos is expensive.

Why can't they operate with 2 locos anyway, at least if one broke down, the other could still work! And if it would be a DMU, then wouldn't each car have an engine making it more expensive?

Track access fees: 10p per mile for a MU (aprox), 50p per mile for a loco (aprox) and 10p for each coach thereafter - but you get a loyality card a t-shirt if your especially good. Mind you with the tilting voyagers weighing it at around 60 tonnes per coach - that's 10 tonnes less that an HST power car, I'm surpised they get away with it.

I suspect the economics stack up in a odd way, accountants are very good at hiding things. Just ask the richest people in the country who pay less tax than you or I!

[petermakosch]

And if it would be a DMU, then wouldn't each car have an engine making it more expensive?

Ah ha! You must remember though that not every coach on a DMU has an engine, usually just two, hmm, just like a loco...

(The two engines being based on a 3-Car 170, i suppose there would be 3 for a 4 car, the two at either end, and one in the middle?).

[FGWDriver929]

You must remember though that not every coach on a DMU has an engine, usually just two

But 180's and voyagers have engines under every coach, thats how they get their excellent power to weight ratio.

[simont]

Personally I think the HST2, when (if?) it comes could be the most exciting development on the UK's railways for ages- if it's done properly. I'm a huge fan of the current HSTs, and I'd be sad to see them go, but much less so if they're replaced with something of higher quality- something up to ICE or TGV standards (of ride quality and comfort) - that would really feel like progress, and even someone as set in my ways as me can accept trains being replaced if it's an actual progression.

[jimbob]

And if it would be a DMU, then wouldn't each car have an engine making it more expensive?

Ah ha! You must remember though that not every coach on a DMU has an engine, usually just two, hmm, just like a loco...

(The two engines being based on a 3-Car 170, i suppose there would be 3 for a 4 car, the two at either end, and one in the middle?).

I think you will find peter that even 3-car 170's have an engine on all coaches, well anglia's do at any rate, dont know if there are different spec's for differents TOC's but still...........

[chriscooper]

All DMUs have had power under every coach since the end of the First Generation types, the only exceptions being the overfloor engined DEMUs, the 210, 252 (prototype HST), 253 (original GW HST) and 254 (original ECML HST). You either have many lighter weight, lower powered, underfloor engined cars, or you have 1 or 2 heavier, higher powered, overfloor engined powercars at one or both ends, and unpowered trailers. From what I have seen the HST 2 will most likely be similar to the current one, with powercars at each end and trailers in the middle. We have to remember that this idea works for the worlds fastest conventional train, the TGV. Out of interest, does anyone know if a Eurostar classes as an EMU, or a pair of top and tail locos and a train, for the purposes of track access, as a Eurostar DM weighs only a few tonnes less than a HST powercar, and along similar lines, would a 253 or 254 class as a DMU?