Class 90 and MK 3s for North Bewick?????

Captain_insane · Post by **Captain_insane** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:09 am

Read something in Rail recently that said scotrail might be using Class 90s and mk 3s on the North Berwick line when the Class 322 head south for the greater anglia frachise as their happens to be a shortage of Class 318s. Anyone else read about this?.

nightbeaver911 · Post by **nightbeaver911** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:10 am

I heard they were going to do that but with class 87s. If they do im off up there for a day out

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:56 pm

I read that and was amazed...

About the last place I'd have thought they'd be used .... that's electrified

Who says railways can't still throw up some surprises?

thedarkness · Post by **thedarkness** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:59 pm

South central have spare 319's, but thameslink {sister company} have to hire in 317's.

rikfarish · Post by **rikfarish** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:38 pm

thedarkness wrote:South central have spare 319's, but thameslink {sister company} have to hire in 317's.

Only maintenance cover spares. We are hiring in 317's in addition to the 319's becasue the service is getting split for six months in September and to enable all trains to run as 8 cars we are getting the 317's back

nightbeaver911 · Post by **nightbeaver911** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:10 pm

johndibben wrote: Who says railways can't still throw up some surprises?

A little bit of straight forward thinking goes along way. do you think a loco and carriages will have the same accerleration as a EMU?

rikfarish · Post by **rikfarish** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:06 pm

nightbeaver911 wrote:
johndibben wrote: Who says railways can't still throw up some surprises?
A little bit of straight forward thinking goes along way. do you think a loco and carriages will have the same accerleration as a EMU?

Having a laugh aint you?? A Class 90 and 3x mark 3's plus a trailer (you probably ain't going to get any longer due to platform length constraints) will whip the . off an EMU. Class 90's with little or no load have immense acceleration.

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:16 pm

He is right, locos hauled trains don't have the same acceleration as EMUs, they are actually better.
A lot of the older EMUs don't exactly have amazing acceleration anyway. In most cases you're talking about 1500hp spread over 4 coaches giving a power/weight ratio of around 10hp/t (for a 322). 87s and 90s have 5000hp in the loco and even with a full 8 coach + DVT West Coast set have a power/weight ratio of 12hp/t. A good example of the difference in performance is that between Manningtree and Colchester, Anglia loco hauled trains are timetabled to take 9 mins wheras FGE 321s are timetabled for 10 mins, even though the Anglia Loco Hauled sets have a lower power/weight ratio than a West Coast set and have tread brakes which reduce braking performance. I think the only problems short formed electric loco hauled trains could have in keeping to EMU timetabled would be not to run early.

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:16 pm

nightbeaver911 wrote:
johndibben wrote: Who says railways can't still throw up some surprises?
A little bit of straight forward thinking goes along way. do you think a loco and carriages will have the same accerleration as a EMU?

Errr .... I gather the answer is no

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:41 pm

Apparantly the Arriva 37s (Leeds - Carlisle) are unable to call at Shipley or Bingley without falling behind the 156 timings - judging by their performance, I'd say that was unlikely

snowcrashandy · Post by **snowcrashandy** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:54 pm

90023 ran trials with 4 Mk3 TSOs and a Mk 3 DVT on 22/12

Pictures on http://www.wnxx.com if you dig around for them

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:51 pm

Tomnick wrote:Apparantly the Arriva 37s (Leeds - Carlisle) are unable to call at Shipley or Bingley without falling behind the 156 timings - judging by their performance, I'd say that was unlikely

Probably true, the reason being that those trains are dragging a dead weight on the back. A 37/4 weights 107t, the equvalent of dragging 3 extra coaches and a bit more on top of that. The sets have a power/weight ratio of 3.6hp/t, compared to 8hp/t from a 156 (notice not far behind the 10hp/t for a 322, but lower than the 9hp/t of a twin power 101 should give

). Even without the extra loco a 37 with 4 Mk2s is only 5.2hp/t, still below the 156. The feeling of performance probably comes from the fact that 37s, like all mixed traffic locos are quite low geared and have a very high starting tractive effort and the alternators fitted to the 37/4s allow full power to be applied very quickly. All this means they can get away from stops much faster than the 156s but loose out at higher speeds. Cutting out some stops though allows them to make use of their 85mph top speed to keep up with the 156s.

jonhewes · Post by **jonhewes** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:01 pm

Haven't the 37s been through-wired so they can work in Tandem?

Thats what I heard anyway, Arriva had spent a great deal of money doing this too.

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:26 pm

Don't think so. Wessex trains have done this with their 31s though and they can easily keep with with 158 timings with 4 Mk2s. The 37s use the same multiple control sytem as the 31s though so it could easily be done by through wiring the Arriva coaches in the same way as the Wessex ones, plus some modifications to the locos such as remote fire alarms. In that case they should easily keep to 156 timings.

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:29 pm

jonhewes wrote:Haven't the 37s been through-wired so they can work in Tandem?

I'm sure you're right here - there were some fire extinguisher modifications before they could work. The 37 on the back was certainly making plenty of noise most of the way back