Flexibility?

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:52 pm

Reading RAIL magazine today reminded me of a couple of incidents over the last few months...

Doncaster - as happens too often, the Cleethorpes fast train arrived behind the all stations from Sheffield to Adwick. This slow train was held in Platform 4 for a couple of minutes while a Leeds train ran into Platform 6, during which time the Cleethorpes could have been signalled in 'on top' - instead, it was held outside until the Adwick eventually 'got the road' and went off. It then had to make its station stop - which just delayed it further. Was there any rule stopping the signalman signalling the Cleethorpes train into the occupied platform?

York - returning quite late in the evening on a late-running Up (southbound) charter train, we were signalled over to Platform 10, and held there for a unit to arrive from Leeds, before crossing back over to the Up Main. Nothing was in, or signalled into, Platform 3 (Up Main Platform), or to otherwise conflict with a movement through that platform. We were obviously booked to run through 10, but not to stop (no advertised stop anyway) but would it not have caused less delay to use some common sense and run us through Platform 3?

The RAIL article I was reading was talking about how some signallers don't use the flexibilty that is provided. Surely, if it was used properly (which, admittedly, would require thinking), then there would be less delay to trains?

ArrivaTrains · Post by **ArrivaTrains** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:55 am

Tell me about it, ive had countless occasions where the York IECC guys have messed me about

You dont get anywhere unless you beg these days!!

yorkie2k · Post by **yorkie2k** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:52 pm

ArrivaTrains wrote:Tell me about it, ive had countless occasions where the York IECC guys have messed me about

You dont get anywhere unless you beg these days!!

Do you do the York-Leeds section? They're always putting stopping trains in front of fast trains these days

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:32 pm

When I went to Doncaster works open day this year I was delayed twice because of freight trains being put in front of passenger trains, one south of Leicester that nearly made me miss my connection at Nottingham (only got it as it was late as well, good old central) and again north of Sheffield. Been delayed into St Pancras quite a few times aswell by West Hamstead putting a Thameslink City "flier" in front of the HST I was on, and on one Sunday stopped my HST along side a Thameslink at Flitwick so that the Thameslink could go in front of us once one had crossed over in the other direction meaning we were under adverese signals until south of St Albans where they run fast, then we were slowed again for it to cross back to the slow lines at West Hamstead.

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:50 pm

North of Sheffield? Let me guess - you were on a non-stop Sheffield - Donny train, but ran behind the all-stations service? Sheffield PSB obviously find it funny - no-else does though

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:03 pm

One of the reasons this happens is due to staff shortages.
A signalman is busy on another panel and just leaves the route he has set for the previous train.
Blame a system that relies on overtime working and not providing sickness cover.

yorkie2k · Post by **yorkie2k** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:04 am

ianmacmillan wrote:One of the reasons this happens is due to staff shortages.
A signalman is busy on another panel and just leaves the route he has set for the previous train.
Blame a system that relies on overtime working and not providing sickness cover.

That's shocking, the amount of money "saved" by not having enough cover for staff can't be much compared to the huge cost in terms of trains being late.

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:32 am

British railways have always been very good at spending a pound to save a penny.
Late running payments do not come from the signalling wages bill so its not their problem.
Happens in any big organisation, especially one so much broken up into so many sections, each with their own budget and accountants.

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:53 pm

ianmacmillan wrote:One of the reasons this happens is due to staff shortages

Not always though - an on-time stopper will nearly always be given the road ahead of a delayed express - even if letting the express go would only delay the other service by a couple of minutes.

In the Sheffield - Donny example, the slow (Adwick) train is booked to leave Sheffield ahead of the Cleethorpes semi-fast. Both call at Meadowhall, then the Adwick train goes down the branch to call at the new Rotherham Central. The Cleethorpes should get past Aldwarke Junction before the Adwick rejoins the main line - often, though, a minute or so delay means that the Adwick is not held - so the Cleethorpes has to run behind it as it calls at all stations.

Other examples are Central's units delaying Virgin's services all the way from BNS to Derby - delaying Virgin by 20+ minutes (which is difficult to recover) rather than Central by only a couple of minutes - and this could probably be recovered.

Still agree that cutbacks - not only in staff - don't help the situation.

nightbeaver911 · Post by **nightbeaver911** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:01 pm

Ive heard of EWS getting priority over some stoppers, okay so its hard to stop and start a freight train if its following a stopper but holding it back that extra 10minutes isnt going to kill it. Something that would of never of happened in BR days.

thedarkness · Post by **thedarkness** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:31 pm

A freight train with green signals doing a steady 75mph will probably keep out of the way of a trailing stopper

Tomnick · Post by **Tomnick** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:39 pm

I'd heard that the opposite was happening - a freight being put 'inside' to let a stopper past, then following the stopper, running under yellows all the way. Running the freight first would, most times, cause no delay to either train, but signalmen don't like to do that because they'd be in trouble if the freight did delay the stopper.

Just shows what a mess the railways are in - no wonder so many lines are nearly at 'capacity' if they're used this inefficiently. Like the man says, a 75mph (even 60 or less) freight under clear signals would keep well ahead.

chriscooper · Post by **chriscooper** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:13 pm

You have to remember that a stopping train probably won't do more than 75mph anyway and depending on distance between stations will proably rarely reach that anyway, wheras a freight can hold maximum speed fairly easliy. A freight will struggle though if running behind a stopping train as they require long stopping distances and would take a long time to get back up to speed. This is especially true on suburban sections where stations are very close together and even EMUs don't get up into the 65-75 range much. Things have changed quite a bit since unfitted freights used to sit for ages in loops waiting for a path on the main line, and I bet some of todays freights could give passenger trains a run for their money on performance. The two delays I mentioned though were firstly a slow freight (50mph) in front of an express passenger and secondly a freight crossing to a loop in front of a stopping service which isn't really good, especially as the first train was delayed by over 10mins.