How long did GW choc/cream last

suffolk · Post by **suffolk** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:42 pm

Hi all, does anyone know when choc/cream Mk1's dissappeared from BR.

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:32 am

Hmmm... Still no reply? OK, I'll take a stab at it. I did type a response hours ago but deleted it as I wasn't at all sure of my facts.

These coaches were most likely replaced by blue and grey repaints. As the choc/cream scheme was used on named expresses only I suspect these flagship services would have been some of the first to get the new livery so I would have thought that the choc/cream went from main line expresses in about 68 or 69. A few odd vehicles probably hung about that had been split up from sets but no doubt these slowly went and my guess is had all gone by 71 at the latest.

But this is only guesswork. You really need Ian Morgan to respond.

lateagain · Post by **lateagain** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:20 am

Hi Suffolk,

I'm no authority on this and expect to be shot down in flames by the experts BUT....

I found a really good Chronology of UK Rail events that someone compiled. As I recall he'd done this from a variety of sources just to answer the sort of questions that both you and I have asked for his own benefit. I'll post the link if I can find it. I printed this out and drew myself up a spreadsheet of Coach and livery starts and ends. I was curious too and this was one of the few sources I could find.

From this I got Chocolate and Cream introduced in 1956, same year as Southern Green and other regions Maroon, officially abandoned a mere 6 years later in 1962 but not fully extinct until 1968, when according to the source information the Green and Maroon Liveries also disappeared to be replaced by all Blue or Blue Grey livery.

As you may have read I'm keen to start a book review section. One of the titles I recently bought "London Steam - Scenes from the Fifties and Sixties" by Michael Welch (Â£8.95 - by Capitol Transport) shows clearly in a number of shots that in reality trains could be made up of coaches in two or more liveries. There are shots of Western Region trains made up of B&C + Maroon, Choc & Cream and Maroon, and possibly (old colour film wasn't too clever) B&C and C&C. This is quite apart from the incredible range of makes of rolling stock that trains in this post-war period seemed to comprise of. In this age of Thames Turbos, it seems really exotic to see such variety.

Hope that's helpful.

All you and I need to do now is sit back and watch the experts tear one another to pieces to prove my source wrong

I'll try and dig out the source of this material as it had some useful stuff in it. I'll post it here if I can find it.

Geoff.

lateagain · Post by **lateagain** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:55 am

Hi Martin

Just read your post. Here's my source data link:

http://www.mremag.demon.co.uk/hpsite/ar ... nology.htm

"compiled by Colin Fraser-Davies and made available to Model Railway Express"

Can't remember where I got it now. Found it again through Google search of Authors name. Loads of useful dates but read First Paragraph.

Geoff

johny · Post by **johny** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:09 am

Just in case the youngsters in this community get the wrong idea, the changes to regional colours were really a partial reintroduction of the colours used by the big four prior to nationalisation. Must have kept the paint manufacturers happy!!!

John

suffolk · Post by **suffolk** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:41 am

Thanks for the help guys, plenty to keep me going there.

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:16 am

That is a realy useful list. A few things wrong tho.

There was a freight exhibition around mid 1961 which BR used to make official some livery changes.
I have lost the article in Modern railways but from what I can remember these were...

End of regional liveries. (Ignored by SR)

Small yellow panel on diesel and electric.
Green livery and sheveron stripes on shunters.
Electric blue made official for AC (Already in use)

Class and restuarant stripes on coaches
Maroon ends on coaching stock
Lighter grey roofs.

Bauxite livery on unfitted stock (Later abandoned after complaints from shunting staff and never fully applied as works continued to use up grey paint)
Ice blue livery for insulated and refrigerated wagons.
Red livery for engineers wagons
Box lettering on wagons. (list has this too early)
Relaxing of rules allowing major customers liveries (eg Ford blue palvans)

Road vehicles changed to yellow. (Maroon was never used as the old blood and custard was more visible)

Much of these changes were not applied before the blue and grey liveries appeared in 1965.

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:52 am

lateagain wrote:Here's my source data link:

http://www.mremag.demon.co.uk/hpsite/ar ... nology.htm

Very useful database, but so depressing - all those withdrawn classes and closed lines... made me quite upset

johndibben · Post by **johndibben** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:20 pm

Quite a number on errors on the list and it appears to be a list of headlines from Trains illustrated, later Modern Railways.

Always good to have a rummage through 50's and 60's magazines

Class 86's were not built in 1961

More like 1964.

The 60's was a great time for mixed coach sets. Still a great numbers of pre-nationalisation coaches about as well.

A 'cascade' system was in place until the 80's which saw the replacements for the newest coaches relegated to secondary main-line status. They replaced something else down the line until the oldest stock, fell off the bottom. Ex-main line stock could be found engaged in the most humble duties.

Modern purpose-built stock put an end to that. So main line expresses are formed of older stock than branch line stock or even excursions.

There's a tendancy to think all diesels had yellow warning panels of some sort. As Ian pointed out, this wasn't commenced until 1961, along with wasp stripes on shunters. This meant they wern't fully applied for some time, especially shunters as they only visited workshops infrequently.

Ironically, now more popular, but at the time, yellow warning panels were seen as an abonination by purists

lateagain · Post by **lateagain** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:14 pm

Hi Suffolk

First of all ONE BIG APOLOGY to all who responded. I must have got this confused with some other forums where "Verbal "Glaswegian Kisses"" seem to be the order of the day!!! Lets not go there.

Instead of shooting me down in flames all the wonderful experts have edited, commented and been generally constructive about the chronological list. I must say that I noticed a few omissions myself, and as I said I'm no expert.

Unlike US Railroads where freight was â€œall that paidâ€

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:00 am

johndibben wrote:A 'cascade' system was in place until the 80's which saw the replacements for the newest coaches relegated to secondary main-line status. They replaced something else down the line until the oldest stock, fell off the bottom. Ex-main line stock could be found engaged in the most humble duties.

This system of relegating older stock to quieter routes has been the system across most UK railways most of the time since about 1850 John.