Power cut and ken livingstones comments

General MSTS related discussion that doesn't really fit into any of the other specific forums.

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Sjould the London underground have it;s own power supply and chelsea power station be re-opened

YES
17
74%
NO
2
9%
I THINCK I WILL WAIT AND SEE
4
17%
 
Total votes: 23

Goingnorth
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Post by Goingnorth »

60085 wrote:Yes, they should. The government should pay off the debts of power stations like Drax. Think I read it's somewhere in the region of 1 billion in the red, with its operator in admin.

We seem to be heading for a state worse than Russia :( .


60085 "MANNA".
Your right there:

- Big brother microchips and trackers in cars
- Trackers on criminals
- Railways, Roads, water and electricity are in serious financial problems
- Heavy taxation
- Mobile phones and internet monitored under RIP.
- Monitoring of news organisations like the BBC
- Large increase in company law
- And red Ken running the capital city
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GavinW
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Post by GavinW »

saddletank wrote:For the Underground? It'd need to be a friggin monster battery 8)
Or Millions of PP9s !!!
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GavinW
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Post by GavinW »

rikfarish wrote:Why bother with power stations, did you know you can move a Class 319 on a 6volt battery!

Rik
No, but you hum it and I will try and join in!!
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60085
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Post by 60085 »

Goingnorth wrote:
60085 wrote:Yes, they should. The government should pay off the debts of power stations like Drax. Think I read it's somewhere in the region of 1 billion in the red, with its operator in admin.

We seem to be heading for a state worse than Russia :( .


60085 "MANNA".
Your right there:

- Big brother microchips and trackers in cars
- Trackers on criminals
- Railways, Roads, water and electricity are in serious financial problems
- Heavy taxation
- Mobile phones and internet monitored under RIP.
- Monitoring of news organisations like the BBC
- Large increase in company law
- And red Ken running the capital city
Time to revolt me thinks.
I would but I have exams on wednesday a thursday :wink:.


60085 "MANNA".
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

60085 wrote:[Time to revolt me thinks.
I would but I have exams on wednesday a thursday :wink:.


60085 "MANNA".
Revolting students, those were the days.

I'm right behind you .... at a safe distance :wink:

I like Ken and he likes frogs. Looks like one as well :)
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60085
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Post by 60085 »

The state of the nation and its descent towards LEDC status doesn't seem to bother students nowadays.
Mind you, if someone's been watering down the Stella then it all kicks off 8).


60085 "MANNA".
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cs1000
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Post by cs1000 »

60085 wrote:Yes, they should. The government should pay off the debts of power stations like Drax. Think I read it's somewhere in the region of 1 billion in the red, with its operator in admin.

We seem to be heading for a state worse than Russia :( .


60085 "MANNA".

no chance some day's you were luck to have the power ON for 4 hours
or how about gettting wood for your fire (as you have no power ) in the grounds of a power plant ?
high prestess of the godness of alan lord of Moderator's :- vote alan for god
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Post by johncas »

The signals in southern area i was told have a battery backup so why insetd of keeping people waiting at satations like victoria because the ENU's can't run the southern area is all EMU's they should have a DMU or diesel loco and coaches to if there is a power cut and the EMU's cant run they can get out a DMU and run a very limited service but at least get the passangers moveing and not spending the night on streets
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Post by Horgy »

johncas wrote:The signals in southern area i was told have a battery backup so why insetd of keeping people waiting at satations like victoria because the ENU's can't run the southern area is all EMU's they should have a DMU or diesel loco and coaches to if there is a power cut and the EMU's cant run they can get out a DMU and run a very limited service but at least get the passangers moveing and not spending the night on streets
People didn't spend their nights on the streets. The problem with organising diesel assistance loco's and DMU's is that there is a limited number in the region.

The actual power cut only lasted 20minutes. I'll own up and say I lived 100 metres away from the substation that went wrong, but they couldnt turn power back on because there were people on the tracks still, and also, didn't want to fry the network.

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Post by johncas »

Thanks for that is did not know that the tube trains were evacuated and people were on lines I was only told that today
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Post by ThinLizzy »

The first indication they get that the juice is off, and they swarm onto the tracks. Trains get stopped in the middle of nowhere, and they realise the juice is off, so they jump down and start walking :o
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Post by NeutronIC »

I have to say that I do not like the commercialisation of core services in the country (I do not understand how privitisation of key services can ever possibly work to be frank, companies go bust especially where there is competition and the last thing that a key service needs is for its main provider to go bust!).

I definitely do not think that companies who have put themselves in to debt should receive any more help than any other company, to be frank, at the end of the day it is their responsibility to run a business in a responsible manner, not to run it in to debt and then start crying to the government. Remember every time the government has to pay YOU have to pay, and I'm pretty sure that there are some people at all of these failing companies that have very nice houses and cars and are earning a hell of a lot more than they should be for a company making such a huge loss.

I think that instead, the process for tendering bids on key services should be less blind. Instead of just asking for costs and going for the cheapest, there should be a total breakdown of the company, all income and expenses, and a total breakdown of the bid and how this will affect the company. This is not to prevent profit - who cares, if someone can provide a service at make 200% profit then that's good on them. The aim is for the person comparing the bids to make sure that at an absolute minimum, the cost being quoted is not beneath the cost of the services and to also make sure the rest of the business is sound. The problem is that companies always undercut each other and some times they will actually cut the profits to next to nothing - far below what other companies might be able to take, especially if they are solely dependent on this business and another company has lots of diversification that they can pull on, then you find that someone will undercut to get the business and end up putting themselves out of business or running up massive debts. This is totally irresponsible for a key service but the key culprit, imho, and the one that needs to take full responsibility, is the person that chooses who wins the bid without taking all of the issues in to account.

As a resident of the UK I expect certain minimums to work such as power, public transport and so forth. I expect them to function, be reliable and be safe. I expect that my taxes should pay for this to happen. I therefore expect that the people who accept bids and make choices should be keeping the non-tangible requirements in mind just as much as the tangibles like costs. Getting to the position that we've competed with ourselves internally so much that everything is run on a shoe string to get costs down to win bids is a hugely bad idea, we'll end up with a rail network that collapses with poor track work, a power situation that has far more potential to collapse or simply not be able to meet the demands placed on it and so forth... oh hang on, maybe we're already there.

All in all, very depressing and a sign of the times unfortunately.

Matt.
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Post by ThinLizzy »

Matt, they do take into account previous service now. thats why Connex wont be getting anymore franchises, and Stagecoach were the prefered bidder for their own franchise. The companies themselves use realible sources, thats why Alstom have gone bust, and Bombadier plus Siemens are recieving loads of orders
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Post by Goingnorth »

I think the principal problem is the UK/US love of lean classic economics. Both these nation have similar problems because the accountants do no understand operational and engineering ramifications. AKA system redundancy. It just doesn't look good on the balance book.

This is why of the reason the railway (and many other public services) are difficult to run. This is because:

1. They are heavily affected by third parties. Bridge bash, weather, vandals, crossing misuse. So just how much do you spend on preventative measures? Alarms at bridges, high fences and so on. An accountant would look at the business case, and work out just what are the chances and theorise just what might happen. Of course, real life isn't like that.

2. By cutting back costs to the minimum on key infrastructure, whereas you may save so many thousands because in theory things should work in a text book manner. The reality is they often don't.

Here's two examples. A five pound fuse blew ones causing £100,00 pounds worth of delay. But someone worked out, even though the fuse was old, it wasn't worth replacing because statically, it shouldn't blow.

A two aspect repeater signal was not replaced with a three aspect signal, even though the braking distances were correct because the original spec had to meet the business case. When the service increased, the railway was no longer able to cope and many minutes of delay built up, far outweighing the cost it would have been to 'just add that bit extra' in the first place. An extra signal section would have been very useful.


In short, if we followed Japanese practice more, and things were slightly over engineered instead of under engineered it might save a lot of problems. Except, accountants don't like it.
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Post by anakha »

NeutronIC wrote:I have to say that I do not like the commercialisation of core services in the country (I do not understand how privitisation of key services can ever possibly work to be frank, companies go bust especially where there is competition and the last thing that a key service needs is for its main provider to go bust!).
Privatisation works. State ownership is costly and inefficient.

Apologies if this is getting off-topic considering this is the general discussion forum but take the example of Britain's water industry which is privatised in England but a nationalised industry in Scotland.

Scottish household bills have gone up by 94% whilst English bills have gone up by only 22% since 1989. An even bigger difference is seen in the cost to business. It is estimated that a medium sized office in Scotland pays 16 times more than its English counterpart whilst it is even worse for bigger companies - BP's refinery at Grangemouth in Scotland has a current annual bill from Scottish Water for £12.7m whilst in England it would be about £7m. BP is even pondering taking Scottish Water to court as it is frustrating its efforts to find alternative supplies.

John Downie, Scottish director of the Federation of Small Businesses, has said that small businesses in Scotland face water bill increases of between 50% and 300% in 2003 - between four and five times the level of equivalent bills in England and that this will cost jobs in Scotland. In total Scottish companies pay about £190m a year more for water than their counterparts in England.

In addition to a nationalised industry being grossly more expensive, it is also less efficient. The Scots get poorer drinking water, more pollution from their sewers and their pipes are more than twice as leaky.

Alan Sutherland – who is Scotland's water regulator – claims that about £86 of the £231 average domestic bill in 2001-02 was wasted.

It's pretty clear that - in general - private firms beat public sector provision on all counts.
NeutronIC wrote:I definitely do not think that companies who have put themselves in to debt should receive any more help than any other company, to be frank, at the end of the day it is their responsibility to run a business in a responsible manner, not to run it in to debt and then start crying to the government.
Exactly right. Off-topic again really but British Energy is a good example. British Energy is the UK’s nuclear electricity generator and produces a fifth of the UK’s electricity and had to ask the Government last year for a massive loan to avoid going bust.

Since 1998 electricity wholesale prices in the UK have fallen by around 40% with much of that saving passed on to businesses and householders - British Energy, which has higher costs than its competitors, could no longer compete.

Privatisation has exposed the true costs of nuclear power and the company's financial problems are a measure of the success, not the failure, of the privatised regime. The openness of the privatised industry makes economic inefficiency and political fudge harder to hide.

Instead of providing a bailout the Government should have let British Energy go under – market forces at work. The shareholders would have lost their money but that’s capitalism.
Robbie S.
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