Comparing the reliabity of builders

Stooopidperson · Post by **Stooopidperson** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:37 pm

Zackybong1 wrote:Because the VETCIS type build was started in 1920, but Cammell-Laird merged with Metro-Vickers in 1929. After this the main Metro-Cammell Ltd brand name was formed and used.

But if they haven't merged yet, then why is it's builder called Metro Cammell Laird? Shouldn't the builder be just Cammell-Laird or Metro-Vickers since they haven't merged yet?

Zackybong1 · Post by **Zackybong1** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:02 pm

It should probably be Cammell-Laird, Metropolitan and the Union Car Co.

Stooopidperson · Post by **Stooopidperson** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:44 pm

Zackybong1 wrote:It should probably be Cammell-Laird, Metropolitan and the Union Car Co.

So Cammell Laird, and Metropolitan and the Union car both built the VEC-TIS, not just one company?

Zackybong1 · Post by **Zackybong1** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:34 pm

Yes. You've got it. You really are quite stoopid aren't you?

snowcrashandy · Post by **snowcrashandy** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:08 pm

Zackybong1 wrote:It should probably be Cammell-Laird, Metropolitan and the Union Car Co.

Took a while to dig the info out.

Metropolitan Vickers are nothing to do with Metro Cammell, Metropolitan Vickers were formed in 1919 when a group of companies headed by Vickers bought out the American interests in the "British Westinghouse Electrical Manufacturing Co", Westinghouse had just finished electrification of the Metropolitan Railway in London and this is where the "Metropolitan" originates.

Metro Vick amalgamated with British Thomson-Houston, another buyout of American interests (the US parent became General Electric, nothing to do with the English General Electric...............) and formed Associated Electrical Industries Ltd (AEI) although both companies traded independently until 1958.

The English GEC bought out AEI in 1967 and English Electric in 1968 and the railway side of things traded as EE-AEI until around 1971 when the GEC name came into use. GEC eventually merged with Alcatel-Alsthom (Alsthom were originally Alsace Thomson-Houston the french equivalent of BTH) and after de-merger the railway and shipbuilding interests were spun off as GEC Alsthom........today's Alstom.

Metropolitan Cammell's origins start with the amalgamation of 5 carriage/wagon building companies in 1902 as the Metropolitan Amalgamated Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Post 1918 Cammell Laird started acquiring interests in several wagon companies and Metropolitan and Cammell Laird amalgamated their railway vehicle building interests in 1927.

The Laird group sold Metro Cammell to GEC-Alsthom in 1989.

Cheers,

Andy.

Stooopidperson · Post by **Stooopidperson** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:43 pm

Sorry to bump up the post, but looking at the list carefully, the longest train ever in operation are the VECTIS units, with 82 years!

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:13 pm

This has (for the most part) been an enlightening discussion. My thanks, if no-one else's, to Zackybong for his listings, and my admiration for either his memory or his research!
Now.. the questions. Can anyone tell me what Class or type the EMUs on the Liverpool Street-Southend line were, (1500v originally, then upgraded to 25kV). I remember 3 distinct styles - Flat fronted, (similar to the old LSWR look) and compartmented, 4 or 8 car sets usually on the limited stop trains; flattish front, bulbous sides and sliding doors, 3, 6 or (mostly) 9 car invariably stopping everywhere; and the bow-fronted units simlar to the Tilbury units from Fenchurch Street and the Chingford and Enfield stock. I think some may still survive in Great Eastern colours, but as I left the UK seven years ago, and the London area even longer back, the memory is hazy..
Oh, and there were some diesel freight locos, numbered (if the haze isn't too thick) in the D8900 series, in the late 50s and early sixties, Does anyone have any idea what class they were, and who made them - and what happened to them?

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:29 pm

Flat fronted, compartmentalised: A Class 307 (AM7)
Flat front, sliding doors: A Class 306 (AM6)
Bow fronted: Harder, could be any of these; Classes 305 and 308, or you may be thinking of the Class 310 and 312

Zackybong1 · Post by **Zackybong1** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:16 pm

Andy, its not quite fair to say that Metro-Cammell are nothing to do with Metro-Vickers.

Metropolitan Cammell's origins start with the amalgamation of 5 carriage/wagon building companies in 1902 as the Metropolitan Amalgamated Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Post 1918 Cammell Laird started acquiring interests in several wagon companies and Metropolitan and Cammell Laird amalgamated their railway vehicle building interests in 1927.

In 1929, Cammell Laird and Co merged its rolling stock interests with Vickers Ltd, who, as you and I have both said, had acquired the shares of the Metropolitan Company, and the name Metropolitan-Cammell Ltd was formed.

Okay this was the old Cammell-Laird and Metro-Vick still going their own ways, but after this time the Laird lot used the name Metro-Cammell.

I agree that they WERE all separate companies at some point, but 1929 is far back enough for me (pre VEC-TIS stock and EM1 for example!)

Zackybong1 · Post by **Zackybong1** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:26 pm

thenudehamster wrote:This has (for the most part) been an enlightening discussion. My thanks, if no-one else's, to Zackybong for his listings, and my admiration for either his memory or his research!
Now.. the questions. Can anyone tell me what Class or type the EMUs on the Liverpool Street-Southend line were, (1500v originally, then upgraded to 25kV). I remember 3 distinct styles - Flat fronted, (similar to the old LSWR look) and compartmented, 4 or 8 car sets usually on the limited stop trains; flattish front, bulbous sides and sliding doors, 3, 6 or (mostly) 9 car invariably stopping everywhere; and the bow-fronted units simlar to the Tilbury units from Fenchurch Street and the Chingford and Enfield stock. I think some may still survive in Great Eastern colours, but as I left the UK seven years ago, and the London area even longer back, the memory is hazy..
Oh, and there were some diesel freight locos, numbered (if the haze isn't too thick) in the D8900 series, in the late 50s and early sixties, Does anyone have any idea what class they were, and who made them - and what happened to them?

My God, your post is as jumbled up as a bag of wool!
Now, you asked what stock was originally 1500v and then converted and ran on the Southend line. The Class 306 and 307 started off using the 1500Dc system out of Liversalts St. The completion of the conversion took place in 1961. The 306 were nicknamed the "Shenfields" amongst other ruder things. To go along with the new voltage the Class 306 was rebuilt, the most obvious difference being the moving of the pantograph from the motor coach to the intermediate coach. These units were 3 coach, not 4.

The class 307 had the flat front like all the other Eastleigh units (as thats where they were built), and thus resembled the SR stock.

When first introduced the Class 302 (AM2, Fenchurch St-Southend Units) ran along the newly AC electrified Colchester-Walton/Clacton line from December 1958 on test. As for Liverpool Street, this would have been started in 1961 after the AC conversion, which was to 6.25kV around the suburbs. This was then changed to 25kV from 1980, the same year that the Class 306s were withdrawn and repalced with Class 315s.

As for the raked back front types (a design panel move) the Class 308/1s worked the outer suburban trains on the GE mainline (Colchester/Braintree for example) the 308/4s and 304/2s ran from Fenchurch Street; the 305/1s did the North East London stuff (Hertford E for eg) and the 305/2s tended, as a rule, to do the Bishops Stortford/Chingford type outer suburban stuff. All the raked back types were AC from new.

Heres a couple of nice pics.

1980

Class 306 interior

The diesel... well. If you mean from Liverpool St (or area) the classes that spring to mind are 15 and 16.
This is the Class 15 (D82XX). The class 16 were D84XX series.

Stooopidperson · Post by **Stooopidperson** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:28 am

Is there a class for the Metropolitan Vickers Sarah Siddons train owned by LU? I've just found out it was built in 1920! And it is still in use today but not in regular service.

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 12:58 pm

Thank you both to Mattvince and Zackybong.
Apologies for the confused looking original request, but 'er downstairs was calling dinner at the time...
Any road, the 306 and 305 were the ones I used to watch - and occasionally ride on, and the 15 and 16 look like the diesels, so another apology for the memory lapse in the numbering, but, as I say, it was a long time ago, and in another country.
Now if it turns out someone actually builds the old route in MSTS, my second childhood will begin early.

jimbob · Post by **jimbob** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:01 pm

Stooopidperson wrote:Is there a class for the Metropolitan Vickers Sarah Siddons train owned by LU? I've just found out it was built in 1920! And it is still in use today but not in regular service.

True but as it was only ever a Metropolitan Railway/London Underground loco it doesn't fit in with the lists as they are BR (& earlier) stock. Btw just to clarify the VEC-TIS stock were actually london underground owned until they were withdrawn by them as life expired & BR then bought them got them overhauled & used them for 20 years on the isle of wight, also the 483's were used by london underground until late 1980's, withdrawn as life expired, bought by BR, overhauled & sent to the isle of wight!

When was the last time the isle of wight got some newly built stock 1920's???

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:03 pm

Thank you both to Mattvince and Zackybong.
Apologies to Zacky for the confused looking original request, but 'er downstairs was calling dinner at the time...
Any road, the 306 and 305 were the ones I used to watch - and occasionally ride on - from Seven Kings. The interior shot of the 306 brought back memories of my grandad picking me up so I could push the button to open the doors...
I may have been confused myself about regular runs of the likes of the 302s, though I thought they were on that line for a while; and yes, I knew they were 25kv, but it was the line I meant was converted
The 15 and 16 look like the diesels I was thinking of, so another apology for the memory lapse in the numbering, but, as I say, it was a long time ago, and in another country.
Now if it turns out someone actually builds the old route in MSTS, my second childhood will begin early.

Stooopidperson · Post by **Stooopidperson** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:32 am

jimbob wrote:
Stooopidperson wrote:Is there a class for the Metropolitan Vickers Sarah Siddons train owned by LU? I've just found out it was built in 1920! And it is still in use today but not in regular service.
True but as it was only ever a Metropolitan Railway/London Underground loco it doesn't fit in with the lists as they are BR (& earlier) stock. Btw just to clarify the VEC-TIS stock were actually london underground owned until they were withdrawn by them as life expired & BR then bought them got them overhauled & used them for 20 years on the isle of wight, also the 483's were used by london underground until late 1980's, withdrawn as life expired, bought by BR, overhauled & sent to the isle of wight!

When was the last time the isle of wight got some newly built stock 1920's???

But why can't they but totally brand new trains in the first place?