First Post Flamebait (TM) - Packaging

General MSTS related discussion that doesn't really fit into any of the other specific forums.

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meagain
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First Post Flamebait (TM) - Packaging

Post by meagain »

Well, yet again time for a first post, and yet again I'll probably get flamed for it ;-)

I've seen the way that people package things (routes, stock, etc.), and noticed a couple of annoying things in some packages.

1. The Installation System
I've seen a number of routes and engines using fancy installation systems such as InstallShield or InstallMaker and wondered whether it is really necessary to go to such lengths, especially when I found my Add/Remove Programs list littered with routes and engines later on.

2. The Full Path
Some people don't realise that if you run WinZip without using the full paths option, it still puts subfolders in their place when extracting. Maybe my installation isn't in \\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Train Simulator\ ... Even worse, I've sometimes found "My Documents" directories and similar in archives. Most people I know get suspicious when files suddenly start appearing in the home directory (it's usually a bad omen).

3. The Word Document
Readme files are best done in plain text. There are a million ways to read text documents and relatively few to deal with Word Documents or RTF files - why does a 500-character document need 50k of space? ;-)

I know the usual response that I'd get at this point (not including the things I wouldn't give the time of day like "Well I like it this way" etc.) is "Do you have a better idea?"...

For this, you will need an archiver capable of producing self-extracting archives ("self-extracting archive" is not "installation program") - programs such as WinZip, WinRAR and WinAce are capable of doing these - I prefer not to use WinZip since RAR and Ace formats give better compression and smaller output files. You may also find an icon file handy, though the software will usually insert a stock icon if you don't have one to hand.

The example walkthrough here is for WinRAR (available from http://www.rarlab.com).

1. Head to wherever your new route/stock/whatever lives, select the relevant subdirectory and choose "Add to archive..."
2. Compression method should be set to "Best" - this will take more time but produce smaller .exe files. Solid archiving is recommended for large numbers of files, and SFX/Self-Extracting might be a useful option to select here ;-)
3. Under "Advanced" on "SFX options" you have the ability to set the output directory. It is best to set this to "." (dot) and "Create under current directory" - if your package uses an installation script to copy texture files or cabviews, put its name ("installme.bat" or whatever) in "Run after extraction".
4. The "Text and Icon" tab lets you select the title text and the message to show at the start. The default message has some useful information, so it may be worth creating a small test file and noting the instructions it gives, since these will not be shown if you add your own text. The option for a custom icon requires a valid icon file (.ico). Software such as MicroAngelo can cerate these, and there are sets of icons available throguh UKTS somewhere.
5. This done, return the the first pane, and double-check your options, including the output filename. Other useful options to set include "Test archived files" and "Add recovery record".

Then you get a working package, with no fuss, and considerably smaller than what you might get out of other methods. Combine this with a sensible readme file (i.e. not a Word or RTF document ;-) ) and you have the near-perfect package. When extracting files, point it at the TS ROUTES or TRAINS directory. If all has gone well, it should install your package, ready to run.

* Special note for trains: it may prove useful to create a TRAINSET and CONSIST directory separately for packaging your objects. This means the end user can just extract to their TRAINS directory and have everything put in the right place.

Yet again, no flames please. Apart from some people's packaging methods, the content inside is always great. It's always good to see people make an effort whether it's their first activity or their umpteenth complex route. :)
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Post by bigvern »

Most PC's capable of running MTS will come with Wordpad, which can quite happily open and dsplay *.doc files, i.e. Word format or RTF.
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Post by meagain »

Most, indeed. However, *ALL* such systems have a viewer capable of reading plain text, in 100% of cases this will also start more quickly than anything which has to decode a non-plain text. Many archiving programs also allow for a text file to be displayed from within the program, and again at the startup of a self-extracting archive.

To my knowledge, WordPad handles Word documents as far as Word 95. Versions later than Word 97 are backward-compatible with the Word 97 format and can be opened in Word 97, though not in 95, and consequentially not in an old enough version of WordPad (possibly even the version as shipped with Windows 98 or ME - I'm not entirely confident in WordPad shipped with XP on the .doc front either). There's also the fact that using a Word or RTF format is entirely unnecessary when a plain text file (as some people already use) will do. Especially for people for whom Windows is not their primary operating environment.
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Re: First Post Flamebait (TM) - Packaging

Post by eddief »

meagain wrote:programs such as WinZip, WinRAR and WinAce are capable of doing these - I prefer not to use WinZip since RAR and Ace formats give better compression and smaller output files.
I prefer to use winzip, never really liked winrar and winace causes me problems as been a loco builder I have ace files set up to be opened by TGA tool (Ace been the texture file format for msts items) using winace would cause problems. Plus as far as I know .zip files are supported by windows.
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petermakosch
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Post by petermakosch »

Newbies! What about the novice computer people?
A guide was uploaded saying how use install makers and the like, and i found it useful.
PLUS: its just eeasier than unzipping to the desktop then copying and pasting.

Newbies just have to double-click on the icon and it will installe everything to the correct place for them.
My past installers did a . job, but the last installer i did was a vast improvement, i edited everything i could to make it different from the rest!

I dont mean to cause bad feeling, this is just my point of view.

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Post by buffy500 »

Bottom line is there are a lot of people who are not computer literate and would not have the slightest idea of what to do. While you might think it simple, there are many who do not, and it makes life so much easier for them.
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Post by delticbob »

Well 'meagain' we are each entitled to our own views, but given what you have written you had better not download my Deltic cabview v3 when I release it....in about a week. :-?

Not that I don't want you too but it contains just about everything you moan about.

One click install, fancy photo's (in the install programme), a MS Word document that runs to 5 pages, cos - as has been said above - not all of us can find our way round MSTS or our computer come to that, so - to use an analogy - a convoy is as fast as its slowest ship.

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Post by gregp »

If a "one click" installation is used for engines or wagons it should not include an uninstall option, because we all know how much trouble deleting them can cause.
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Post by bigvern »

The biggest single source of complaint before I switched over to using the "Click" installer was that people couldn't find where the unzipped files had gone! D5381 was a particular source of trouble as while the other rolling stock unzipped to give a readme and the installer, D5381 unzipped the actual folder which then needed to be manually copied over to the MTS directory. However, if the use didn't know where it unzipped to in the first place, they were unable to copy the folder over thus were getting errors on starting MTS.

Since switching to "Click" I have had *no* complaints regarding install. As a concession to those who have MTS installed to a different drive or directory structure I leave the installer to extract to the default path, but the "advanced" user has the opportunity to extract the files wherever they like when prompted. And the issue of deselecting the Uninstall option when setting up an install package was covered a few weeks ago.

Buffy is correct there are - with no disrespect - a lot of good people out there who enjoy using the PC but view it in the same way as a car, they want to switch on and go. They don't understand or use Windows Explorer or even know where to get programmes like WinZip (and the built in zip utility shipped with XP can be confusing to a novice.

So I will continue to package and present my routes in the manner I see fit with documentation on a neatly typed word document. With the total distribution up in the 1000's by now, I must be doing something right!
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Post by choccy »

I cope with most kinds of packaging ok. When Click is used I prefer it to search my registry to put the files in the right place automatically, though wouldn't make a fuss about havng to modify c:/program files etc.

The one form of packaging whihc does irritatate me somewhat is when I unzip a file to find multiple folders scattered around. I open the readme and it tells me to put, maybe 20-30 folders- sometimes all of them are individually named in a folder called 15_Plank LMS or some such thing. Here it's a case of unecessary work for both the uploader and the downloader.

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Post by buffy500 »

bigvern wrote: So I will continue to package and present my routes in the manner I see fit with documentation on a neatly typed word document. With the total distribution up in the 1000's by now, I must be doing something right!
I was going to say that, but it would not have been as polite.
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Post by kevarc »

To those that are not computer literate, I will give you thhis advice: Get the dummies book for your OS. And READ IT. file management is very important, it should be one of the first things learned by a novice. This sim FORCES you to learn or you wil never get full use out of all the dl's that are available. I have been screwing with this since the days of Dos 3.0 and W2.0 and found that learning o manipulate files is a requirment, not a luxury.

I prefer to have zips that I can unzip into a folder where I can make the corrections to physics before the engine or car gets moved into the trainset folder.
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Post by gregp »

Even with the "one click" installers you can override the MSTS install path and install in to a temp directory. I always do this because I also want to see exactly what is being installed and to update the physics.

I have only ever had one problem doing this - one install overwrote the registry entry for the MSTS location with the temp install path! This caused me considerable confusion because bits of MSTS worked and others didn't.
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Post by meagain »

[Edited]
Let's look at things from another perspective here.

1. Userbase. We're not simpletons. If there are any, they certainly should not be using software which uses recursive parsing (i.e. looking in subfolders and reading files therein) as extensibility.

2. The Computer Element. Forget the users for a minute. think about the computers and mechanisms between the content developer and the end-user. Some of us are blessed with dialup modems. Every extra unnecessary byte a dialup user has to download is an unnecessary delay in them getting your content. Every extra unnecessary byte that anyone has ot download pushes up the bandwidth usage at the download sites (UKTS, for example).
Less wasted bandwidth => more users happier => happier developers.
Less wasted bandwidth => less bandwidth costs => happier sysadmins.

On other fronts, the user should be responsible for knowing where TS is installed, not the designer (who can't possibly know). The user should be responsible for installing the route correctly, not the designer (though an element of "meeting half-way" is necessary, doing the whole thing for them is overkill). In fact, you have no need for a fancy installation system if you provide good enough instructions to your users. A self-extracting archive which presents the message "Enter the path to the MSTS ROUTES directory below" (s/ROUTES/TRAINS as appropriate) should be more than adequate. InstallShield (to name but one) with things which require relatively simple installation (i.e. "put all this stuff here") brings to mind the words "sledgehammer" and "walnut".
gregp wrote:Even with the "one click" installers you can override the MSTS install path and install in to a temp directory.
As you can do with any self-extracting archive.
I always do this because I also want to see exactly what is being installed and to update the physics.
Nice self-extracting archives will tell you which file they're extracting where.
one install overwrote the registry entry for the MSTS location with the temp install path! This caused me considerable confusion because bits of MSTS worked and others didn't.
Something which a self-extracting archive won't do.

To be gained from using self-extracting archives:
* No path assumption
* Better compression => less wasted UKTS bandwidth
* Post-extract execution of another script
* Lower crash rate (trust me on this one - I had to reboot 7 times to completely install a bunch of routes and trains that used dedicated installation systems like ClickTeam and InstallShield)
* No software support needed. Self-extracting archive means an archive that extracts itself (without the need for the program that made it)

To be gained from using plain-text readmes:
* Wider support base (I don't like rebooting just to read one document)
* Smaller file size => less wasted UKTS bandwidth

One more thing. PLEASE DON'T use the "full paths" option in WinZip (or anything else for that matter). (a) It's an assumption of where the install is (a Bad Thing) and (b) It's not good to have people thinking it's normal to put things at the root of their HDs, especially when doing so is can lead to other Bad Things ...
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Post by buffy500 »

No offence mate, but have you uploaded anything ? If not then you have no idea what kind of people you are dealing with. You may well be the best PC user in the world, BUT it is not a good idea to assume that everyone else is as good as you.

People DO NOT read most document or instructions that you include in a download, so unless you want to spend the next 3 months telling people to read the readme using an installer makes a lot more sense.

People who want to install it to a temp directory can do. People who have no idea what or where to install things to can just clik ok ok ok ok etc... and it will work.

'Click team' seems perfectly capable of finding the MSTS install location from the registry, it can be installed anywhere the user likes, the registry will still know where it is.
On other fronts, the user should be responsible for knowing where TS is installed, not the designer (who can't possibly know). The user should be responsible for installing the route correctly, not the designer (though an element of "meeting half-way" is necessary, doing the whole thing for them is overkill). In fact, you have no need for a fancy installation system if you provide good enough instructions to your users. A self-extracting archive which presents the message "Enter the path to the MSTS ROUTES directory below" (s/ROUTES/TRAINS as appropriate) should be more than adequate. InstallShield (to name but one) with things which require relatively simple installation (i.e. "put all this stuff here") brings to mind the words "sledgehammer" and "walnut".
But the bottom line is many have no idea, and we don't need to know either !
Instructions are never read !
I will agree that InstallShield is over kill, and makes files a serious amount bigger, but click team has a pretty low over head.
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