Are the retail routes really worth the money

Cobos · Post by **Cobos** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:18 am

Firstly, I'm not criticising. Just looking for opinions.

There has been a few retail routes appear in the last month. Cambrian and London to Brighton are the most recent, with the SVR coming soon, and to be honest I can't see how they can cost 5 times the amount of one or two freeware routes. The route that really brings this to my attention is the Skipton to Carlisle route. Although the latest screenshots of SVR could well justify the cost.

Now I'm only going by the screenshots I've seen. There appears to be lots of custom models in the Skipton to Carlisle route, just as you would expect in the retail routes. So, in a way this is like saying that the retail routes are 5 times better than say, Skipton to Carlisle.

I've read lots of posts about both those routes, and both are praised very much, and justified from the screenshots. But is it worth paying 5 times more for the retail routes.

Kerr

Timcourt1 · Post by **Timcourt1** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:45 am

I can give a reply here to Justify the cost of the Severn Valley just from my own personal perspective (Hope Bluearrow doesnt mind)

The SVR does not contain any MSTS default content with the exception of the track and rod shapes.

The whole route was photographed over the last year by researchers.

A varyning number of people have worked Non stop to create this route, not just for the heck of it or just because we wanted to but practically as a commisioned work, Much money has been spent on researching the route and making it as accurate as possible to the real thing within the confines of MSTS itself, this along with every object ( right down to individual Flowers and fence wire and ropes) is 100% Photoreal, not just derived from photo's but using the actual photo's to texture the real thing.

I would hate to contemplate even the amount of hours that have gone into creating this (Probably around the same as a hollywood movie), even if we were paid Minimum wage I should think we may just break even.

The freeware people (Including myself) spend every spare moment either building or doing something to do with the route so others can enjoy the content, how they get or if they get something in return is their own choice.

I like to think SVR will be rewarding especially since I personally have spent the last 9 months building and modelling on this short 16 miles of line around 4 hours a night and 16+ hors every weekend with only a 2 week break to visit the UK and 2 days off over christmas.

I dare say the London- Brighton crew have done the same, if I was not a creator I would be happy to pay for routes produced commercially since these products not only enhance the train sim experience but enable developers to hone their skills and produce better freeware routes and models into the bargain, if everything were frewware and we didnt have companies producing such products it wold retrd the development of the sim all round, proof would be to look at some (Not all) of the freeware guys who were happily doing frewware models etc, then look at what they are producing now after making a commercial product, Speaking for myself I know it has increased my skill by many times what it would have done had I just carried on extending mideast and building the odd coach/loco now and again.

See what kind of freeware the likes of Kim durose/terry thornton produce after SVR is done and you will see what i mean.

Anyway sorry for the long post but I thought I would share my outlook on this issue from a personal level.

Tim

jashton · Post by **jashton** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:34 am

Well, Kerr, your question sure raised a lot of intersting issues in my mind. I'll see if I can articulate some of them:

- Your suggestion that a payware route must be five times better than a freeware route to be worth the money implicitly assumes that a "freeware" route is only worth 4 pounds. I disagree. Think the several of the freeware routes are worth a lot more than that, especially to those who have a particular interest in the route or era. I would't pay 20 pounds for every freeware route I've downloaded, but for my favourites I've gotten at least that much value out of them.

- It's a matter of availability. If every payware route had an average to good quality freeware route alternative, the payware sales volumes would be a lot lower. However, it's clear that some people are willing to pay the full rate if there are few if any close alternatives.

- As a means of supporting future editions of MSTS, some people are probably willing to invest in a payware product of interest to them to demonstrate that there is a demand for more MSTS product. I'm sure M$ takes an interest in add-on sales volumes, and the higher the sales of add-ons, the greater the probability that M$ will (continue to?) improve the basic game software. Money talks.

If you ask me, the contributions you, Tim Court, Big Vern and so many others have made to MSTS are priceless. You set the standards that the payware producers are measured against. But I do not expect everyone with the same combination of skill, time availabilty and drive to be as generous as you, and I'm willing to pay for a quality product.

Jeff

saddletank · Post by **saddletank** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:14 am

From talking to the public at the UKTS stand at model railway shows it is quite evident that a lot of MSTS users do not frequent the freeware sites at all. No, don't laugh, it's true. The SVR will be available in high street shops and therefore will tap an entirely different additional market to 'us lot' who browse the forums. You cannot sell freeware in the high street and so payware is the only way to tap this market.

mikey2001 · Post by **mikey2001** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:08 am

Persoanlly, I think that the 'payware' routes that cost around Â£20 (i.e. London - Brighton, Cambrian Coast) are excellent value for money and that other routes that charge around Â£4 (MidEast) are undervalued. The reasons I give for this are that many hours of hard work have been put into all the routes by the team or authors behind them, and I would have no objection in paying a little more because of the superb quality of all the routes I have purchased. I would say that I am more a fan of modern scene routes and I would have to say that MidEast at Â£4 was superb value for money, but I would quite happily have paid more for it (considering all the added extras that London - Brighton had like rolling stock and activites). Thats my 2p anyway...

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:31 am

I agree with everything everyone who has previously answered says.

You are forgetting a simple point about routes from UKTS, you are not paying anything for the route, you are paying a flat fee to cover the cost of producing the CD and shipping it to you. Nothing much else.

Also to echo Tims point about 'breaking even', consider this, at a very minimum I have spent 1000 hours on London Brighton since the start of the year. I would not be surprised to hear it was more like 1200 either !

*IF* the route were to do really well and I was to 'earn' Â£10,000, that works out Â£10 an hour. (oh and by the time I pay the tax on that, make that Â£6 an hour) Then compare that to the Â£16 an hour I can get for driving a truck at the weekend, or the similar rate for my normal day job.
It becomes clear that its not really a very well paid way of spending my time.

Then take away the literally hundreds of pounds spent in travel and research and digital cameras and computer hardware.

The cost of the publisher actually cutting the disks and getting it to market will be around Â£10,000.
And also the retail makes about Â£12 a copy too!

ianm42 · Post by **ianm42** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:39 am

To get it into perspective, its like saying 'Is this pair of socks I went and bought at the shop better than this pair of socks my mum bought me for Xmas?'

It is just not valid asking if one is better value than the other.

Freeware routes are gifts from the people who create tham. Like all gifts, some will be much appreciated and used a great deal, and others will be put to the back of a cupboard and only brought out when the person who gave it to you is invited to tea.

The only valid question you can ask would be 'is this particular payware route worth the money to me?'

That will of course depend on your tastes, preferences for steam or modern traction, country, region, long, short, wool or cotton, diamond pattern ...
The value can be judged after you get it by how much you use it. Hopefully, reading the reviews and looking at the screenshots can help you decide if it will be of value to you before buying.

X2000 · Post by **X2000** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:44 am

Add-on packs that are NOT worth the money

Train Sim Roundhouse - The very first commercial add-on and possibly the WORST Â£24.99 I have ever spent in my life. This package is a TOTAL rip-off.

LTV EIRE Mining Company Trainset - Rubbish. The trains themselves are very nice, but the route and activities are appalling. I only got about half way through the route, got bored and quit. Never played it again since.

High Speed Trains - The included trains themselves are very nice. But the route is just far too short, 70km and featuring only TWO stations! Not good enough for a high speed route.

Add-on packs that ARE worth the money

German Railroads Volume 1
Pro Train 2
Pro Train 3
Pro Train 1
Pro Train Austraian Scenic Experience
Cambrian Coast A Seaside Journey
London-Brighton Express
Heidi Express

.........the first few add-on packs were rubbish, or at best "not very good". Thankfully all add-on packs released within the last year have been of much better quality and generally worth the money.

CaldRail · Post by **CaldRail** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:59 pm

Payware routes, however well made, are always subject to time limits so they will never fully satisfy. Freeware routes vary in quality. Some are, well, ughhh, and others are labours of love that quite frankly astonish me.

So I guess you pay your money, you take your choice. And all those route builders creating UghhhRail (me included) don't give up. Just learn from criticism and experience. Like wot I don't apparently...

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:48 pm

I find value in being involved with both.

A commercial project opens up avenues and distribution possibilities which are just not possible sending out freeware routes from a home web page.

On the other hand there are certain shortcuts available with freeware routes - like using any MS default object if it takes your fancy - which are not open to the commercial project.

I've always strived to do all of the routes I've been involved in to the highest possible standard, though where you know people are paying a sum of money for something there's that incentive to push the quality a little further.

As regards the financial side, for obvious reasons I can't quote exact figures. However none of us building (or who have built) routes are driving round in Freelanders yet (though I live in hope). The commercial work I have done supports the freeware in terms of paying for the equipment and research material required. At the same time the freeware routes will hopefully lead the user to check out the commercial route.

It's all a very fine balance and ultimately the more quality routes that are available the more successful MTS will become.

stewart · Post by **stewart** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:09 pm

Keep in mind also that although you are not strictly paying for a freeware route but only paying for the materials research and postage etc. By the same token you are not limited to paying the price requested. If you think a freeware route is outstanding. then there is nothing stopping you from giving the author an extra gift in return for the gift he has given you. At the end of the day thats what these freeware routes are, gifts and the fact that people have given their time freely to produce them is what makes them so worth while.

Its not that the payware routes arent worth the money its more a case of the freeware routes are so undervalued. Like anything that comes easy they tend to get taken for granted. So dont knock the payware routes for their apparent lack of value. Show more appreciation to the freeware authors. Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers,
Stewart.

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:35 pm

stewart wrote:...there is nothing stopping you from giving the author an extra gift in return for the gift he has given you.

Stewart.

A green automatic Freelander then please...

ianmacmillan · Post by **ianmacmillan** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:37 pm

My only gripe with the payware routes is the included stock.
This is usually of a very high standard making it unlikely that a freeware version will appear.
This makes it difficult to use it in an activity for another route.

As an example, the MPV, on weedkilling duties, has to cover every inch of a route. This would make an ideal activity for checking out a route.
But the activity would only work if you had bought London Brighton.

While I will buy it as I lived there in the 70s, many fellow Scots will not.
The same can be said for the Metro Cammel DMU with the Cambrian route and the fantastic LNER coaches coming with SVR.

Perhaps a pay to download site would be the answer but this might reduce sales and not be popular with the payware companies.

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:47 pm

Bit confused what you mean Ian.

If you buy the stock with the route then it's available to use in the MTS activity editor. The only restriction is that if sharing the activity, anyone downloading needs to be aware of the rolling stock required.

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:10 pm

ianmacmillan wrote:Perhaps a pay to download site would be the answer but this might reduce sales and not be popular with the payware companies.

I personally would be interested in a system like this if it were properly implemented.