Dirty Coaches

[dforrest]

Does anyone else think we need some dirty coaches to run with locos like this?



.

[martinhodgson]

I think we just need dirty/weathered coaches full stop. It isn't right driving past rakes of MkI/IIs or even III/IVs which are all in pristine, factory condition.

[saddletank]

I've raised this question before but bow to the skills of the modellers who say that it is quite difficult to produce a clean coach given that they are up to 70ft long and you are limited to the texture space of MSTS (unless you do something daft like use 5 or 6 ace files and affect frame rates). So adding extra detail with weathering along the side of an object that size so that it does not look naff is very difficult. Additionally coach signage has to be legible (clear sharp image) and merged in with the weathered effect so all in all coach weathering is probably the single most difficult texturing job out there.

[daveannjon]

Looking through colour albums of steam on BR the coaches are often surprisingly clean even though the locos look disgusting, but I take the point.

Dave W

[qzdcg8]

I suppose it was fairly easy to run them through the carriage cleaners...

[saddletank]

Photos are misleading. Take a photo of a fairly dirty car and it will appear cleaner in the picture. I do not know why this is, but it seems to be true of all glossy surfaces when photographed. But coaches were quite dirty much of the time unless they were crack expresses or similar prestigious services. Take a look at the coaching stock of a preserved railway, even the newly out-shopped repaints and within a couple of weeks the subtle patina of grime quickly reasserts itself, usually on roofs, around door hinges, down sides below rainstrips, on footboards and always, always present around running gear, ends and solebars. This subtle weathering is the hardest to achieve in real railway modelling because it is so minimal but it is what gives a vehicle a sense of weight and presence. I doubt MSTS is even up to producing such effects with it's limited texture sizes and pallet of colours, but if someone wants to have a go, it would be a worthwhile thing to master.

[robin]

I've raised this question before but bow to the skills of the modellers who say that it is quite difficult to produce a clean coach given that they are up to 70ft long and you are limited to the texture space of MSTS (unless you do something daft like use 5 or 6 ace files and affect frame rates). So adding extra detail with weathering along the side of an object that size so that it does not look naff is very difficult. Additionally coach signage has to be legible (clear sharp image) and merged in with the weathered effect so all in all coach weathering is probably the single most difficult texturing job out there.

I don't see it is that difficult to produce a clean coach with good detail without using lots of ace files. However it can increase the model poly count a little. The best technic is to not have a single section of a coach side but have one in multiple sections depending on how the windows/doors repeat etc. this can produce sharp texturing. I used this technic on my latest versions of the GWR 4 wheel coaches and the longer bogied Bsets.

Now dirty ones can present difficulties particularly if one has used a sectional body technique as the dirt paterns will also be repeated down the body and create an unrealistic effect. However dirtying up a texture in itself is not that difficult and one can create some quite realistic results in a similar way to the 'spraying' on the dirt that would be done on a physical model.

It is also a matter of taste just as much as realism. I have produced some mildly dirty versions of locos etc only to be asked to do a clean version!

[DaveR]

On older stock a lot of what looks to be dirt is in fact brake block dust, this will give the appearence of rust as it steaks form various places such as door hinges, handles, etc, it will also very quickly take the shine away from any surface as it will eat in to the paint, you are right Martin, not only does it give the appearence of making something look heavy, it does add a lot of weight over the years, I have chipped bits off the underframe of 63 stock which were up to one inch thick, in the depot we used to use acid to remove it from body sides before sending the unit through the washer, it was applied by hand, a twelve car unit both sides, thats 24 coach sides using a long handle brush was a lot of work, all dressed up in protective clothing and quite often under a glass roof .

Now as all modern stock has disc brakes the problem is solved, but until all the old stock has gone you will still see the effects as it covers everything around, that is why you quite often see that drab look on lineside buildings, one tip if you use a station car park, try not to park to close to where the trains are running because over time it will do the same to your car if it is there on a daily basis.

Dave.

[duckweed]

When adding dirt to textures which have had to be split to fit on 512x512 I rejoin them, add the dirt then split then again. This way the dirt pattern is consistent over the whole face.

I agree about the increase in file size a dirty loco's ace files can be twice the file size of a clean one, but I like dirty locos.

I admire the coach builders, there is a lot of work involved in producing a set. Perhaps some of the re-skinners would have a go at weathering some of the existing ones, with the authors permission of course.

Regards,

~Terry~

[bravedan]

Well, as a test of what's possible, I have weathered my own graphics work on the LMS 57' Push Pull, using Terry's texture base as a shading template and amending from there to get a close but differing "match". It's uploaded...........

Have been fighting my computer today as it's sick, so this was also a test of it as well as me...........

Despite this, it took little over an hour.........

The roof and underframes cannot be textured as finely without model alterations as they are textured from small swatches which are heavily stretched and so distort textures.

Offline now till Sun night, but is this what people want??

[bravedan]

Forgot to say, real steam era carriages tend to look cleaner than locos partially cos they are heavily varnished, the varnish resisted the dirt better and the shine still showed through, also, they were not heated like a boiler, etc, so the surface remained fine grained longer, resisting attachment.

We notice this on our old buses, the bonnets always go first..............

Dave

[ianmacmillan]

We notice this on our old buses, the bonnets always go first..............

Dave

Isn't that the direction they were designed to go?

[bravedan]

We notice this on our old buses, the bonnets always go first..............

Dave

Isn't that the direction they were designed to go?

You have obviously not seen our drivers perform..... ......

or the vehicles............we have vehicles with reversed gear layout, centre throttle pedal layout, hand clutches, some with RH gear lever, some LH, some with RH Handbrake, some LH, two where you push the lever rather than pull it, we even have one that has three forward AND THREE REVERSE GEARS (1924, AND with sequential change!!)

......the last versions of these chassis bought were reversed under the body so they DID run backwards with the "bonnet" at the back most of the time, they were Shelvoke and Drewry "Freighters", used for Worthing "Tramocar" service, in the remote case of anyone being actually interested........

http://www.amberleymuseum.co.uk and navigate to the bus pages.......??

[bravedan]

AND WHILE WE ARE IN FULL ANORAK MODE.............

If running the LMS Push Pull coach with Terrys' 0-4-4T, the black one 6404 was not Push Pull fitted in LMS days, it was not modified till September 1950.

The only two modified to Vacuum Push Pull in LMS days from my records were 6408 (renumbered 1908 from 1946....done July 1934), and 6409 (1909 from 1946.........done March 1934)......all the rest were done in 1950/1.

I also have in my library published info that initially for a short time after launch in 1932 these locos were all very unusual livery freaks in that they were black but with straw lining rather than red.....can anyone confirm???

Technically they were designed between Fowler going and Stanier arriving, when Earnest Lemon was "holding the fort" as CME ........which surely makes them "Lemons" ?????????????

OK, I'll go now...............

[dforrest]

Well, as a test of what's possible, I have weathered my own graphics work on the LMS 57' Push Pull, using Terry's texture base as a shading template and amending from there to get a close but differing "match". It's uploaded........... 8)

Have been fighting my computer today as it's sick, so this was also a test of it as well as me........... :cry:

Despite this, it took little over an hour.........

The roof and underframes cannot be textured as finely without model alterations as they are textured from small swatches which are heavily stretched and so distort textures.

Offline now till Sun night, but is this what people want??

I like it.