Microsoft got it wrong again.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:28 pm

Having recently obtained Tim courts mideast route,I had a problem with derailments at biggleswade and thought i was the only one getting this problem,after contacting Tim Court and being reffered by him to search the forums for biggleswade i now know this broken coupling issue is a pain in the backside.I have read posts from novices like me to experienced route builders who have all put various theories forward as to causes and cures.
Here comes my beef about the whole issue,I my opinion the problem is down to the original Microsoft/Kuju people who coded the sim.Once again Microsft got it wrong just like they got several releases of filightsim wrong.For instance why wasnt this coupling problem picked up on during beta testing?or matbe it was but the original coders thought "so what" release the sim anyway,and some dedicated enthusiast will fix the problem for us.In conclusion it seems to me that for a company that uses the motto "as real as it gets"most times gets it very unreal and then relies on other people to get it right.

alan2 · Post by **alan2** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:33 pm

What Do you Mean "Beta Testers"?

That's us isn't it.

Don't forget All Microsoft Products are "Early" Version's. ie. Beta version's.

eg. Flight Sim.

It take's several version's to sort out all the problem's and Bug's, I am quite Impressed with some aspect's of Msts, most are not Default though.

But If we can build Better product's than M$ or Kuju, then It show's our Attention to detail and their programming skill's, Plus the Differences between good Programmers and hobbyist's which can spend a lot of time on one object.

In other words, Time / Money. We have time, Free, No cost.
They have a deadline and a budget.
So the Sim was rushed to the Market place because it was a new product, they didn't know if it would sell any copies at all, how wrong they were.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:16 pm

Alan i got to take issue with you on your reply firstly there has been about six versions of flightsim and the latest fs2002 is still not right.getting back to msts my view is if i go into p.c.world and pay Â£39:99 for train simulator the dam thing should work properly after being installed and it doesn,t.There are at least two places on the Settle to carlisle route and one place in one of the American routes that derailments occur if the coupling values are not strengthened.As for your comment about it being down to money,and the uncertainty of weather msts would sell enough copies,Well my heart bleeds for old Bill Gates and his 18 billion dollar personal fortune.

phill70 · Post by **phill70** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:35 pm

just look at the amount of people who went out and brought the original windows 95, it was a pile of poo.
MS have always used its users as its beta testers.
as i understand it msts was around 6 months late, kuju were being put under loads of pressure by MS, thats why it is/was so buggy. kuju just did not have time to fully test it.

suffolk · Post by **suffolk** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:52 pm

This reminds me of the spat between Microsoft and Gen Motors in which Bill Gates said that if the american motor industry had developed at the same rate the computer industry we would all be driving cars that cost $1000 and did 1000 MPG, (or something like that).

To which the President of GM replied, if the the american motor industry develpoed at the same rate as the computer industry we we all be driving cars that crashed for no apparent reason at least 4 times a day, if the engine stalled you would have to put the key in the door lock, then switch the engine on whilst holding on to the radio arial to restart it.

buster1961 · Post by **buster1961** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:15 am

As a developer myself, Id like to add that we are as challenged by the development software and the target platforms as we are by the products we are trying to make..

NT4 has to have service pack 4 on as a minimum before it works..

ME never worked. 98 needs release 2 to be stable..

C++ and VB6, all part of Microsofts Visual Studio 6 have to have service pack 5 installed to be semi stable and even they arent supported anymore with the release of .NET

The bugs and faults in the development suite are incorporated into the product and are not helped by unstable platforms, faulty BIOS settings and every other tweak or bodge that has been added by the end user.

All this has to be within the 4 year life span of an operating system and the 2 year life span of a product.

Why do anyone of us bother. We like to think we are near the leading edge. by the time we get it out the door its Legacy....

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:53 am

phil from what you are saying do you think the next edition of msts will be better providing Kuju don,t have to rush? In 40 years as a railway signalman i often had to rush but was never responsible for putting a train on the deck.
Suffolk...I like the analogy.

phill70 · Post by **phill70** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:57 am

well kuju were advertising for testers for msts, so yes i think V2 will be better, after all they will have had nearly 2 years to fix it

of course it still won't be bug free, lets just make the best of what we have

lets face it, 2 years ago the best around was bve.

buster1961 · Post by **buster1961** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:00 pm

One concern I have is what are they developing? If its a fix and upgrade to the existing MSTS then in some respects thats good in that the work done by so many people will still be usable but bad in the respect that many of its limitations and flaws will still be in place.

If its a new product then its most likely that everyones work will be either unusable or will require massive upgrade to get it to work. It will also suffer as many bugs as MSTS did because beta testing doesnt put the stress on an application that the end users will. Primarily all beta testing does is prove that its about 80%+ functional.

One thing that makes me feel its the first option is that MS or whoever produced a gamepack for gmax. IMO the more powerful of the modelling apps. Maybe thats an indicator.

wirralsimon · Post by **wirralsimon** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:47 pm

I have kept out of these 'MSTS is unfit for purpose' discussions up until now, and I'm certainly no admirer of Microsoft, but we have to keep the criticisms in perspective.

The bald facts of the matter are that this site wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't for MSTS.

As with the first release on just about any game, MSTS has bugs. There are features 'missing' that I would quite like, and things in the game that could have been done better.

However

Speaking as someone who came into MSTS from a general interest in computer gaming, rather than trains or modelling I have to say that I have got more out of playing MSTS that I have from any game in years. It has revived an interest in trains that has lain dormant since early childhood 30 years ago, I have discovered a whole new online community of genuine and helpful people to hang out with in a virtual sense and just as importantly, I have thoroughly enjoyed buying, downloading and driving some great models and routes, many of whom have been contributed by members of this site. I'll be trying TRAINZ soon too.

I look forward to MSTS2 addressing some of the issues that people are unhappy with, but ask yourselves this question, would you rather Microsoft/Kuju had kept MSTS 'in the can' for a lot longer before releasing it? I certainly wouldn't. MSTS has it's faults, but it is still a great game.

This is less about buying a game for me, more like starting a new hobby, but I'm around fopr the long haul and I'm prepared to cut Kuju/Microsoft a little slack if there is still room for improvement. If you really, really don't like MSTS, stop moaning about it and play something else.

Simon

wirralsimon · Post by **wirralsimon** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:48 pm

I have kept out of these 'MSTS is unfit for purpose' discussions up until now, and I'm certainly no admirer of Microsoft, but we have to keep the criticisms in perspective.

The bald facts of the matter are that this site wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't for MSTS.

As with the first release on just about any game, MSTS has bugs. There are features 'missing' that I would quite like, and things in the game that could have been done better.

However

Speaking as someone who came into MSTS from a general interest in computer gaming, rather than trains or modelling I have to say that I have got more out of playing MSTS that I have from any game in years. It has revived an interest in trains that has lain dormant since early childhood 30 years ago, I have discovered a whole new online community of genuine and helpful people to hang out with in a virtual sense and just as importantly, I have thoroughly enjoyed buying, downloading and driving some great models and routes, many of whom have been contributed by members of this site. I'll be trying TRAINZ soon too.

I look forward to MSTS2 addressing some of the issues that people are unhappy with, but ask yourselves this question, would you rather Microsoft/Kuju had kept MSTS 'in the can' for a lot longer before releasing it? I certainly wouldn't. MSTS has it's faults, but it is still a great game.

This is less about buying a game for me, more like starting a new hobby, but I'm around fopr the long haul and I'm prepared to cut Kuju/Microsoft a little slack if there is still room for improvement. If you really, really don't like MSTS, stop moaning about it and play something else.

Simon

buster1961 · Post by **buster1961** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:13 pm

wirralsimon, I wouldnt take many of the moans too seriously. Most of the people here are well aware of how good the good aspects of MSTS are and how annoying the bad aspects are.

Personally I feel MSTS is a brilliant start for a potentially amazing product but having been around MS for many years I have become quite pessimistic about how they follow up on products.

The support so far seems to have been very begrudging and doesnt bode well..

Anyway this has been said a thousand times on this site and im not gonna carry it on here.....

Smile, it might not happen....

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:33 pm

MSTS was a leap of faith for an industry where hitherto the attitude had been there was never going to be enough demand for a "train game" on a commercial scale. You've only got to look at how the PC gaming press regarded rail software with much derision (there was one honourable exception, the now defunct Strategy Player). It does have it's problems, needs a better editor, better train physics etc., but the last 18 months have been a lot happier with MSTS than they would have been without.

My biggest worry re MTS2 at the moment is going to be compatability though, as I've remarked before, if the price of getting a far more stable and accurate sim is starting over with the routes it might be worth paying.

boeing126 · Post by **boeing126** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:45 pm

Buster the word on the grapevine is that msts2 will have two versions..standard thats what we got now but they are going to tart the texture up a bit.Then there is going to be a professional edition,that will have an extra engine and a new route,Bradford to Islamabad.It seems old bill gates wants to capture the asian market.The downside is there is a bad set of points just before you turn right at Frankfurt.

buster1961 · Post by **buster1961** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:48 pm

I heard that the Enterprise edition will have an additional cd.... 'The making of MSTS2' Reloaded...

Also the .Net version will allow you to print your error messages out on a network printer...