Railway Accidents [Insights]

LucaZone · Post by **LucaZone** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:14 am

While searching deep for CTRL related information, i stumbled across these reports, diagrams, and photographs of some of the rail disasters of this country in the last 5 years.

Selby [layout and photographs]
Pottersbar [layout and photographs]
Hatfield [layout and photographs]
Ladbrook Grove 1 [PDF containing photographs]
Ladbrook Grove 2 [PDF containing track diagram of Paddington approaches]

Timcourt1 · Post by **Timcourt1** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:12 am

I see Hatfiled was quite close to the station then, when building this on Mideast I was going to place the cross where it happened but figured putting it at the end of the station was a better thing to do.

Didnt realise the extent of it till i saw that ariel pic- pretty nasty really.

tim

anamorph · Post by **anamorph** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:42 am

I had a look at this a few weeks back, but I think it is good to let all see
it. It's not too hard to find, but not easy either.

I did think that it was a bit macabre searching out crash info - I was actually searching for info on Polmont, but of course at the end of the day
EVERYONE should have a look because if these and other acidents tell us one thing, it's that while there are some genuine accidents that are unfortunate, most are the fault of someone not doing something properly at some point, whether it's track maintenance, rolling stock or whatever.

Have a look at http://www.scotsman.com and (you need to register - free) search for the story about Kirknewton Level Crossing: Unbelievably even after a permanent camera installed and lots pf TV and newspaper coverage, when a photographer from the paper was there, he was able to get a pic of TWO cars jumping the lights, no wonder it's the worst for this in Scotland.

Goingnorth · Post by **Goingnorth** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:45 pm

First one to spot my name in the Ladbroke grove reports wins a prize...

Worrying really. Anyway, I'm in there quite a bit. One of the 'good guys' fortunately. But that's why I don't talk up railway management in general cos I've seen how bloody useless they are first hand..

danielw2599 · Post by **danielw2599** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:22 pm

hi

Funny you should make this post....

Got one for your collection, Today 25th jan 2003 tube train derailed in london. luckly only cuts and bruises.

look on sky news.

i rekon you talked this one up, lol

LucaZone · Post by **LucaZone** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:41 pm

sorry.

Some interesting facts i picked out of the reems of reports. Mark4 coaches are very ridge, and have a strengthened structure designed to take impacts well from the ends. However damage or peneration to the sides of the coaches can cause severe weaknesses to this strength (southall, coach bent in half). Also, the integrity of the coach frame in a crash is vastly reduced with speeds over 60Mph. Thus in the cases of hatfield and ladbroke grove, the coaches suffered due to the high speeds they were impacted at.

Arent the speeds that these trains were doing, normal?

Does anyone have any information concerning the design of a MarkV coach, or maybe future trains are going to adopt the artiulated bogie sharing that a large number of foreign trains now incorporate.

basildd · Post by **basildd** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:51 pm

LucaZone wrote: sorry.

Some interesting facts i picked out of the reems of reports. Mark4 coaches are very ridge, and have a strengthened structure designed to take impacts well from the ends. However damage or peneration to the sides of the coaches can cause severe weaknesses to this strength (southall, coach bent in half). Also, the integrity of the coach frame in a crash is vastly reduced with speeds over 60Mph. Thus in the cases of hatfield and ladbroke grove, the coaches suffered due to the high speeds they were impacted at.

Arent the speeds that these trains were doing, normal?

Does anyone have any information concerning the design of a MarkV coach, or maybe future trains are going to adopt the artiulated bogie sharing that a large number of foreign trains now incorporate.

Well they weren't designed to work through Southall or Ladbrook Grove for a start!

LucaZone · Post by **LucaZone** » Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:57 am

Well i know that. I remember from the Collision Course programme that it was admitted that there was no way they could do the types of testing they do now. And at Â£1million cost, it wasnt a case of simply crashing one to find out.

Its just a concerning thought that trains are permitted to travel at speeds that exceed recommended crash worthiness levels. If that makes sense.

Goingnorth · Post by **Goingnorth** » Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:01 am

LucaZone wrote: sorry.

Some interesting facts i picked out of the reems of reports. Mark4 coaches are very ridge, and have a strengthened structure designed to take impacts well from the ends. However damage or peneration to the sides of the coaches can cause severe weaknesses to this strength (southall, coach bent in half). Also, the integrity of the coach frame in a crash is vastly reduced with speeds over 60Mph. Thus in the cases of hatfield and ladbroke grove, the coaches suffered due to the high speeds they were impacted at.

Arent the speeds that these trains were doing, normal?

Does anyone have any information concerning the design of a MarkV coach, or maybe future trains are going to adopt the artiulated bogie sharing that a large number of foreign trains now incorporate.

You cannot design coaches that are that strong. It's just not possible. The Mk3 and 4 coaches are extremely strong. In fact, because the Mk4 is so heavy and ridged, the ride has suffered because there is no give in the frame at all. The Southall, Ladbroke grove, Hatfield, and Heck accidents were very unfortunate. The stresses involved as Ladbroke and Heck have never been seen before in the world, let along Britain. As I said you simply cannot design coaches that are designed to impact into 1600 ton freight trains at 125mph.

And you have a lot better chance of survival in a train than is a car, bus and certainly a plane - which has extremely light construction for obvious reasons.

Of-course pre-mark 3 you had a lightweight frame on a heavy chassis. Although the Mark 1 and 2 coaches were/are considered safe because of their metal construction and buckeye couplings. Prior to that, many coaches were wooden frames and chain couplings. In crashes you would get telescoping, where the coach body used to enter the coach ahead, killing the occupants.

There have been many accidents that have proven the design of Mk3 coaches. For example Colwich Junction in 1986. Where a Euston bound express hit a Manchester train that had accidentally stopped on a diamond crossover at nearly 100mph. The death list was just one.

As for articulated bogies. Itâ€™s really, for whatever reason, not been US and UK practice to use such designs. Although, there has been exceptions. For example some high-speed LNER coaches of the 1920s/1930s. Having said that, a number of designers have suggested such an arrangement for HST2. Itâ€™s obviously safer in a derailment, but is problematic during uncoupling should a vehicle become defective. They are typically used on TGV/Highspeed type trains, for several reasons. Including weight saving ones. Remember the track can only take so much. And many rail vehicles today are at the practical limit of UK type track. With very light (relatively) type rails. Although this is being changed with new lays.

As for the design of the Mark 4. They have a tilting profile, slightly increased length and stiffer frames for extra stretch as well as added end strength. Apart from that they are similar to the MK3 in terms of basic design. The bogies are from Swiss manufacturer SIG and are modified for UK use. The coaches on the continent being longer thanks to their larger loading gauge. Thatâ€™s the space between track and platform, bridge, tunnels etc...critical if the coaches are turning on curves.

buster1961 · Post by **buster1961** » Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:24 am

I agree about the strength of coaches, of any mark. Quite a few years ago I saw the results of an incident at Tyseley South. Some empty stock from Birmingham was going onto the Stratford branch when an loaded MGR passed a signal at red protecting the junction. It went thru the middle like a knife thru butter...