True to period consists

[esswe]

I'm trying to make some true to period UK consists for MSTS. My main interest is in passenger trains. What I've gathered so far is that a typical 1950's consist would be a 2-6-4T steam loco with Mk1 coaches, green in the south, chocolate-and-brown in the west and blood-and-custard elsewhere. I've also learnt that the Mk2 coaches entered service in the mid 1960's so they would be OK for a 1970's consist (along with the Mk1). Perhaps with a Class 37 loco? DMUs would also be used in the 1970's.

But when did the Mk1 coaches enter service? Which coaches would be OK for a 1930's passenger train consist? Which locos would be proper? Were there any diesel or electric locos in service for passenger trains in the 1950's? Which type of loco would be used with the Mk1 Pullman cars that are in the file library?

[ianm42]

Well, Mk1 coaches started appearing early 1950's, initially in 'plum and spilt milk' livery, quickly changing to 'blood and custard' (plain crimson for suburban stock). This was for all regions.

Then, towards the end of the 1950's they changed to green for the southern region, and maroon everywhere else. The western region did paint a few chocolate and cream, but only for certain prestige trains.

A lot of pre-BR coaches were still in use throughout the 1950's, but they were repainted as per the Mk1's.

In the 1960's, the Mk2's appeared, along with the blue/grey colour scheme. This was also applied to the Mk1's. The only pre-BR coaches to survive to get this livery were some LNER restaurant coaches.

Through the 1950's all sorts of steam locomotives would be seen at the head of Mk1 stock, Castles and Kings, Princesses and Duchesses, A3s and A4s, West Countrys and Merchant Navys, plus less famous types.

Mainline diesel locomotives appeared at the birth of British Railways, in the form of the LMS Co-Co twins and the SR 1-Co-Co-1 trio. The mid-50's saw the trialling of prototypes, including Deltic, Lion, DP2, Falcon and Kestrel, and the rushed introduction of various type 1 and 2 locomotives. Of these, only the English Electric type 1 survives, now known as the Class 20. The Clayton type 1 and North British diesel hydraulics were particularly disasterous.

The more successful type 3, 4 and 5 locomotives soon followed, in particular, those now known as Classes 31, 37, 40, 44, 45, 47, 52 and 55. Most started life green, turning to blue during the 1960's.


Note that forerunners to the ubiquitous 08 diesel shunter were operated by both the LMS and SR before British Railways.

Back in the 1930's, coaching stock would be a mixture of the Big Four own brand, plus a lot of pre-grouping stock originating from their constituent companies, ie. very varied.

[esswe]

Well, Mk1 coaches started appearing early 1950's, initially in 'plum and spilt milk' livery, quickly changing to 'blood and custard' (plain crimson for suburban stock). This was for all regions.

I haven't seen any Mk1s in plain crimson so I guess I'll have to paint my own. Can I find colour samples somewhere on the net?

Then, towards the end of the 1950's they changed to green for the southern region, and maroon everywhere else. The western region did paint a few chocolate and cream, but only for certain prestige trains.

A lot of pre-BR coaches were still in use throughout the 1950's, but they were repainted as per the Mk1's.

So that's where the ex-LMS coaches in the file library fit in. Would the proper paint scheme for those coaches be the same as for the Mk1s, i e blood-and-custard and crimson? I've found pictures on the 'Net showing 2-6-4T locos with mixed sets of Mk1 and SR Bulleid coaches. And I guess those would be crimson during the early 1950's and green during the late 1950's and early 1960's. (I remember riding dark reddish-brown trains in the mid 1950's but I was only a litle boy then, more interested in the steam locos than the coaches. But I do remember the tank locomotives quite clearly.)

[ianm42]

The non-corridor Mk1 stock appeared in Crimson, and is available for download. The corridor stock would be 'blood and custard' (crimson and cream) in that period. The bullied stock was painted similarly, ie crimson for the non-corridor stock and crimson and cream for corridor stock. Later it would revert to green.

The ex-LMS stock went to crimson and cream, and plain crimson, as above, later reverting to maroon.


Having said all that, it would take a number of years before everything was repainted, so a lot of mixed up trains would be seen.

Also note that the blue/grey livery started to appear just before the end of steam on British Railways. Indeed, the very last British Railways steam hauled train over the Settle and Carlisle route included a couple of blue/grey coaches.

[Zackybong1]

Sorry Ian, I hate to be picky, but diesel history is one of my passions.

The first classes (main line) to enter service (after the experimental locos LMS 10000 and BR 10001, Southern Railway loco 10203, Fell Loco 4-8-4, Brown Boveri Gas Turbine loco 18000, and Deltic) were the Modernisation Plan's diesel locos (174 in all) ordered in 1954; deliveries starting in 1957.

These were later to become the first (and only in some cases) batches of English Electrics Classes 20 (still in service), 23, 40, Clayton/BTH Class 15, British Rail built Classes 24, 44, 42; North British built 16, 21, 22, 41; Birmingham RC&W class 26; Brush class 30 (note: also STILL IN SERVICE); and Metrovick class 28 (the Co-Bo loco).

The other prototypes all followed on from these. Falcon, 1961; DP2 & Lion 1962; Kestrel as late as 1968, not in the 50s. Some bettered the previous designs (eg classes 25, 27, 43, 45 & 46) some entirely new and necessary from demand (classes 55, 47, 52, 35, 37, 50, 73) and some as a kind of third generation (eg: 50, 56, 58, 60).

[60085]

When did air conditioned Mk.2 stock start appearing?
Where they modified stock or a second batch with design modifications in their blue prints?


60085 "MANNA".

[rwaceyw]

Can you download plum and spilt milk mk1's anywhere?

[ianm42]

Apologies, I reallyshould check my books before spouting off.

OK, book open - First Mk2 prototype entered service 1963, main production appearing 64-65. Note some early Mk2s appeared in BR maroon, and southern region green livery.

Mk2As followed in 67-68, being air-braked, but otherwise similar to the Mk2s.

The Mk2Bs were intended to be air-conditioned, but in the end were not. These were the first to have the wrap-around doors at the body ends. They were also slightly longer than the earlier coaches. They appeared around 1969.

Later batches of the Mk2Bs were then going to be air conditioned, and were called Mk2Cs, but again, it was not installed.

Finally, the Mk2D's arrived in Autumn 1970. These had the smaller, non opening windows and air conditioning.

The Mk2E and Mk2F designed followed over the next three years.

[robin]

Don't forget guys that in the beginning of BR the regions had a lot of different types of stock even in the late sixties. There wasn't a flood of Mk1s at the beggining so a lot of pre natiionalisation stock would be available and only gradually phased out. On summer specials a lot of reserve stock was also used so you could see quite a mixture.

Its also true that we often make the mistake of regimentaly making rakes of all one type and colour scheme. This may happen on the top link trains but on the more lowly everyday services there would be quite a mixture of colours even if they were all MK1s. They couldn't paint them all on the same day after all. The rolling stock like the locomotives would normally wait until some major maintenance schedule.

I can remember as a wee lad in the sixties seeing trains of mixed types and colours and not all coaches were strictly in their regions either I can remember seeing coaches with M and S prefixes to their stock numbers as well as the more familiar W pulling into Swindon station.

[60085]

Thanks for that.
I can't say i'd like to of been on a 80-100mph express in a Mk.1 coach. I know the track on BR is supposedly in better condition (you wouldn't think it) than preserved lines, but even so, at 20-30mph on the North York. Moors is quite sufficient, and the fact that theres a steam engine upfront is the only thing that makes the ride bearable.

The Mk.3's must of been very welcome to a lot of bruised bottoms.


60085 "MANNA".

[ianm42]

You still can experience 80mph+ in a Mk1 coach, Waterloo-Southampton in a 4CEP or a 4VEP

[60085]

Think i'll give that a miss.
Don't want to cause unnecessary damage to one's teeth, i have to pay for my dental treatment nowadays.


60085 "MANNA".

[spartacus]

The standard of track and maintainace of rolling stock is the only thing that makes the ride a bit dodgy on most preserved lines. Until recently there were still Mk1s running on mainlines up the about 90 in normal passenger workings, and having travels on some, you'll be pleased to know they were pleasantly smooth.

[alan2]

Have you travelled on a MK1, they are very comfy. When I travel on Mk2's, I have to have my head just out of the window, looking where we're going or I fall asleep.

Mind you when I'm in a Mk1, I usually have my head out of the window looking at the loco pulling the train. If it's not too cold out.

[spartacus]

Have exacly the same problem on Mk2s!