Atomic Systems

Although this has been discussed before in regards to UKTrainSim, I would like to know what people (and Kuju) think about using torrents as a way to share files?

I used to be a premium member here and as I always have had access to cards then paying has been easy but for many members, they are simply not old enough to pay using bank cards. I stopped my membership as I un-installed and sold MSTS over a year ago.

The idea of sharing trains and free routes (the ISO image!) through a torrent system is one way to help such younger members (and older ones alike) get the files they want. A couple of people here have offered to put up a couple of route ISO's on their webspace to help others get them without having to pay for something that is really free (see below). With the majority of people on broadband, it wouldn't take long to download and burn the CD yourself OR like myself, put a few onto a DVD as a backup and use a virtual drive to install. Or even put a few routes together and have the DVD-Image readily available to download?!

One reason I feel quite strongly about this is that I bought many of the freeware routes (ok, I didnt buy them, but I bought the postage, packing and CD/burning time etc etc) but then when I sold my version of MSTS then I didnt need them anymore, but if I displayed them on the eBay sale then I would have been cursed here and accused of SELLING them. No, I just added them as they would have been better used with the buyer than in the bin. I actually showed them in the picture but displayed no text about them at all.

Another reason I feel strongly about this is that I found out one freeware route was burned and dispatched only a mile down the road from where I lived. I emailled the burner/dispatcher and asked if I could come along with a blank CD and get a copy of the route, but was told no. I can see why the answer was no, but also think that it was wrong for them to say that. It would have been a few days before I got the route instead of a few minutes as well as me being £4.50 down.

The download queue is always full and I simply wouldn't have the time to sit here and wait, yet, if it was on a torrent, I could download from another member and seed (or share) to other members at my own leisure. Because of the hash check and tracker in torrents then no rogue files could enter the system properly, which would keep a degree of moderation on the files which are available to download.
Although this may generate less income for the site, I still believe that many will still pay for premium membership as it includes many other things, not just a free download limit.

If someone is (in effect) downloading from me then it would take some of the bandwidth strain from the site, perhaps decreasing the amount it costs to run or even opening up more download slots for non-premium members.

Any views?
Peter

But on the other hand, it means the copyright holder surrenders any semblance of control over their work. Some people would be happy to do that, others wouldn't.

petermakosch wrote: The download queue is always full
Any views?
Peter

Not with Premium membership, it isn't.
....Which pays for the site (including these forums), and the bandwith for the non premium members....
Then where would we be?

arabiandisco wrote:But on the other hand, it means the copyright holder surrenders any semblance of control over their work. Some people would be happy to do that, others wouldn't.

Well, I, for one, wouldn't.
Terry

petermakosch wrote:...but for many members, they are simply not old enough to pay using bank cards. I stopped my membership as I un-installed and sold MSTS over a year ago.

Yes, young people don't have access to their own credit or debit cards (which is a good thing bearing in mind the level of debt this country is in). However, UKTrainsim does accept payment by cheque (which parents could write out on behalf of their kids) and Postal Orders which have no age restriction on purchasing them.

My monthly quota for broadband is less than one CD worth of data.
If I would join some sharing scheme, forwarding the file to other persons would add to my traffic.

Greater sims bring greater files. E.g., we know that textures will be bigger in KRS compared to MSTS, and the number of objects per mile of route will increase (significantly, I hope).

This leads to my belief that the future will bring mail dispatched DVDs.

Since only a part of the authors will agree with giving up all control, it would be natural to install such a system in parallel to the UKTS system. Most likely it would need some funding, too, because the initial contributor will see quite some traffic. So either the route author pays the traffic for distributing his route (less than with traditional file downloads, where he pays all, but still something) or some central distributor does. (Who will volunteer?)

AndiS wrote:My monthly quota for broadband is less than one CD worth of data.
If I would join some sharing scheme, forwarding the file to other persons would add to my traffic.

A good point Andi.

NTL / Telewest in the UK are now experimenting with traffic shaping to manage their network so large bandwidth users will see their bandwidth drop if they exceed a certain amount of data transfer in peak hours.

P2P solutions are doomed to failure as the current "no limits" broadband deals dry up and traffic limits are applied to all domestic users. The prospect of me as a premium member not being able to download stuff due to me exceeding my upload limits by sharing stuff I have paid to download does not sit well with me so torrents are off the agenda for me.

And like Terry - none of my meagre contributions will be available via torrents with my approval.

Kindest regards

John

Here we go again.


Poor Peter wants everything for free while Moneybags Matt swans off to Bondi in the Lear Jet at the site's expense.

What nonsense!

We pay for this site and it's a bargain. What money comes in pays for the resources it requires and whats left pays for the free downloads.
Reduce the revenue and you lose the free downloads.
OK, so some money goes to the roadshows but that pays for itself in new subscriptions.

I don't imagine Matt makes a penny from us. I bet he's subsidising it from his own pocket.


Using Torrent will reduce the income to the site and I will not allow any of my uploads to be disributed in that way.
This also includes routes using my wagons as scenic items.

I will not do anything to harm this site.

ianmacmillan wrote:Here we go again.


Poor Peter wants everything for free while Moneybags Matt swans off to Bondi in the Lear Jet at the site's expense.

What nonsense!

I would say Peter took some time to lay down his ideas, and he stated that he does not mean to attack UKTS, even if in the end you could understand the proposal in such a way.

I am happy to hear that other countries hit the traffic limits, too - always thought I live in the backyard of Europe.
Btw. my provider agressively promotes TV on demand (over the internet), so they really do something to increase traffic and certainly they will charge ever cent they can get out of their customers.

And in a previous debate, someone explained that torrents are only fun for files that are demanded by many people world wide. If only a few people have them "on offer for upload", then your download speed will be just as frustrating as waiting for the UKTS queue. And if you compare the download counts on UKTS with the downloads of - e.g. - music hits, you know once again that we are the doomed weirdos doing what no one does, and therefore will not benefit from the great advances in technology - leaving all other aspects aside.

AndiS wrote:My monthly quota for broadband is less than one CD worth of data.

Goodness. You need a new ISP. I use Zen, and my allowance is 100Gb per month for a 1Mb/s service.

With the majority of people on broadband

I would be very interested as to where you get your information from.

BT have quoted that during January 2007 they passed the 10 million homes capable of broadband. That's CAPABLE of Broadband, NOT connected to Broadband. There are still a large number of UKTS Premium Members and NON Premium Members on Dialup. There are also a number of members who have NO INTERNET access at all, our Mail Order customers whom me meet and greet regularly at Exhibitions and via snailmail.

Torrent was originally designed for SHARING PRIVATE files and NOT for RIPPING off the Internet wholesale.

jamespetts wrote:

AndiS wrote:My monthly quota for broadband is less than one CD worth of data.

Goodness. You need a new ISP. I use Zen, and my allowance is 100Gb per month for a 1Mb/s service.

I live in Austria, not UK.

Here the rates are 20 EUR for 400 MB, 30 (now maybe 26) for 800 MB etc.
Via the university I could get a few GB for 30 or so but all these nice providers ask for 30 to 70 EUR each time you change your scheme, even if it is the same provider and same modem, so I am a bit slow in changing.

Anyway, I am not trying to attract anybody's pity, I just try to point out that not everyone has tons of GB for nearly no money and that you need them to join the torrent.
But Leviathan has made a much stronger point already.

arabiandisco wrote:But on the other hand, it means the copyright holder surrenders any semblance of control over their work. Some people would be happy to do that, others wouldn't.

It'll be exactly like a CD, so like the copyright holder has some control over the CD that is produced, if they want it taking down off the torrent list then a simple email to Matt or whoever would be in charge of it all and then anyone downloading after that will have an invalid hash/tracker.

terrycunliffe wrote:

petermakosch wrote: The download queue is always full
Any views?
Peter

Not with Premium membership, it isn't.
....Which pays for the site (including these forums), and the bandwith for the non premium members....
Then where would we be?

See this:

petermakosch wrote: . . .Although this may generate less income for the site, I still believe that many will still pay for premium membership as it includes many other things, not just a free download limit.

Although I would also be interested into the details of the reasons you would not like your work to be distributed in this way?

There are still many ISPs that do not have limits on their accounts. Some of the largest do yes, but then I am not saying this as a replacement, just another way to download. At the moment, I am caught under the fair Usage Allownce which most uncapped services provide. Between the hours of 6pm and 11pm I am limited, which is fine for me as I admit I gobble up the juice over night and doing this and that all throughout the day. Still, a very good point and one to consider.

ianmacmillan wrote:Poor Peter wants everything for free while Moneybags Matt swans off to Bondi in the Lear Jet at the site's expense.

I know Matt doesn't take profit from the site, I am not one from the Moneybags Matt wagon, just simply suggesting an idea. Maybe limit it to routes only? After talks in the past it seems only 1 in 15 or so would actually use it. Small as it may be, we still are weary about 56k people who are (probably) the minority? Hmm. It's not that I want everything for free, if there are people here willing to help share the load to HELP the site, then why not take advantage?
I am actually a little offended by that, but then like said above, this is just an idea. People seem to shove it off because they associate torrents with bad bad and illegal things when the most successfull files I have seen, are actually the legal ones. . .

leviathan1949 wrote:

With the majority of people on broadband

I would be very interested as to where you get your information from.

I admit I guessed on that front BUT I am in a position to make an educated guess. With ISPs upgrading packages for free (TeleWest, NTL, AOL, BT) and BT rolling out the 21 Century Network making things go even faster then I should think the majority of people are on at least a 512k connection, which counts as broadband (although some people on 8Mb connections must laugh at 512k!). Here is a good site which has detailed information: http://www.samknows.com/

I know there are many who are still on 56k, but as sites upgrade to be more images than text and we have things like movies and whole games available to download then the age of the 56k is being squeezed out. Some do not have an internet connection, thats fine. Some have a 56k connection, thats fine to - I am not saying stop any other download system currently in use, I am only providing an alternative for those who can.

Also, you do not HAVE to seed/share the download once it is finished. Although this is frowned upon by torrent communities, if there are a willing bunch of people ready to help then a few may simply download and never seed (although of course some will seed while they are downloading). This might also help those who get reset after 2 hours on the internet. I used to be kicked off when I had a 56k modem so anything big was out of the question.

I am not saying this is a replacement, just interested to what people think. I was careful on how to structure my first post to try and include many points for discussion.

If the person who makes the stock/route/activity is happy to have his/her work shared by bit torrent then there's no problem with sharing it by bit torrent.

End of argument really.

Sounds like your sour grapes are with UKTrainsim and not Kuju. The solution is not to buy anything from UKTS that you have to pay for and just download free stuff, make your own or buy from third parties.

Kuju can not make people share stuff they make over bit torrent anymore than they can make people share stuff they make and don't share.

I haven't got any sour grapes with anyone?

I knwo I mentioned about the route a mile down the road event but that was an example, I continued my premuim well after that happened and hoe to contribute more to the file libarary when I have gotten into Rail Simulator and eventually MSTSx.

I doubt any commercial publisher/developer would want much to do with a third party that encourages use of torrent. Too much affiliation with Warez and piracy.

I'm on BT Broadband basic package which, when it actually connects (funny thought Broadband was supposed to always be on!), gives a 2.2 Mb connection with a 2Gb cap per month. Enough for my use of the Internet though that could change I suppose. Besides speed is as much linked to the capacity of the servers at t'other end as the actual connection.

Unfortunately just as the arguments raged around the use of CD's or subscription sites to distribute MSTS content as file sizes for everything get bigger, that bandwidth doesn't come free.