Add On Announcement

[jbilton]

Hi
I'm not so sure its greed, rather than a failure to understand virtual train simming as a hobby.
Flight simulators are vastly more popular, so development costs can be shared more evenly.
If KRS sells at the rumoured £35, and even if it were to sell at £50 Kuju would not make the returns that EA are possibly looking for.
Therefore it makes sense to sell the original cheaply...builds up a user base...and try to make more on addons.
I think this will work well in the German and American markets, sales are bigger there anyway....but might not work so well here.
Only time will tell.
As I've posted a few times before, I've personally never made a penny from Train simming and wouldn't want to or need to.
I love being able to simulate what I cannot see in the real world anymore, which for me is mainly BR 1950s-1980s.
If I can't do that I loose interest fairly quickly.
Payware in the UK is really only beer money, but it does give a little incentive which freeware doesn't.
The forums are littered with abandoned projects...or as good as abandoned.
Because if you can't actually download and use something, then its not available...no matter what the author says
Cheers
Jon

[gallop3ta]

I don't see the difference between a commercial licence for the Kuju tools and the licence required by TSM and others for commercial use.

If it is a one off payment similar to the TSM and a similar payment, fair enough.
As the rumours all seem to be fact so far, I don't thnk this is what Kuju
have in mind.
Until a figure or formula or this payment is published we are all in the dark.
MSTS might be a shocker physics wise if using default stock or stock which is unmodified.
eg In Australia we have converted all stock ro the proper settings brake wise.
ie a 70psi brakepipe.
We are quite amazed really that a similar thing didn't happen in Europe as you are all still running a yank brake which is totally different.
I see this as maybe a rason why Kuju have seperated Europe from the US contentin KRS.
With a modified brake and friction settings the experience is so much more challenging and is now fairly close to the real thing.
I spent 17 years driving trains here in Australia , so I do know how different it still is , but it is getting a lot closer to realism or else I wouldn't have bothered.
It took a lot of work to get it right but is well worth te effort.
We now have it at a stage where if the brake is poorly manipulated going down a big hill you will run out of air which is prototypical.
When you look at the acheivements of George with MSTS bin in a few months , imagine where he will be at by next year.
I bet both Kuju and EA are wondering too but for different reasons.
Until then it's business as usual with MSTS.
Cheers
Ian

[ForburyLion]

I'm an optimist, Reading this though my rose tinted specs I get the impression that Kuju are simply implementing some form of quality control and co-ordination - Remember all the occaasional . MSTS add on or ones which screwed up the T Section by using the same file names as other add on track pieces?

It may also allow them to keep a co-ordinated database of who is planning to build what and notify parties who may be making the same add on to prevent duplication.

What does concern me is if for example, Company A receive exclusive rights to produce a class 37 for their add on and as such Companies B, C and D are prevented from producing one.

As for the licence, It could be a nominal sum like £5 to make things easier to enforce legally. Such as ensuring no add ons are created which could harm Kuju's reputation.

At the end of the day, the commercial content creators are the ones who have to discuss this with Kuju, whether it puts them off or not is something we'll know about soon enough. If the licence is quite high then perhaps a number of smaller creators could form a partnership.

[dkightley]

After what I've found out from the KRS demo and recent discussions here, I thought I'd lay my cards on the table:
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 423#729423

It's not what I wanted to do.....


Doug

[jbilton]

I'm an optimist, Reading this though my rose tinted specs I get the impression that Kuju are simply implementing some form of quality control and co-ordination - Remember all the occaasional . MSTS add on or ones which screwed up the T Section by using the same file names as other add on track pieces?

It may also allow them to keep a co-ordinated database of who is planning to build what and notify parties who may be making the same add on to prevent duplication.

What does concern me is if for example, Company A receive exclusive rights to produce a class 37 for their add on and as such Companies B, C and D are prevented from producing one.

As for the licence, It could be a nominal sum like £5 to make things easier to enforce legally. Such as ensuring no add ons are created which could harm Kuju's reputation.

At the end of the day, the commercial content creators are the ones who have to discuss this with Kuju, whether it puts them off or not is something we'll know about soon enough. If the licence is quite high then perhaps a number of smaller creators could form a partnership.

Hi
Well as I posted above, I think it will be and needs to be,substanially more than that.
AFAIK none of the current UK outline content providers have entered into any meaningful discussions with Kuju at present.
Allowing for the usual development pace the earliest you'll see a UK addon is 12 months away.
I look forward to be proved wrong of course.
Cheers
Jon

PS Where can you buy rose tinted specs...I'd love a pair.

[mickoo737]

And a tailless dog can't wag anything....only bark.

However this dog is muzzled ( NDA ) so not only can it not bark, it can't wag its tail, how does it then communicate....it can't....hmm, l can now see the parallels.

It'll be interesting to see how many other rumours will now become fact.

The license fee can come in many forms or guises, even MS had some sort of loose system with one of the Flight sim packages, the pro version was required to get the developer tools, after that it was free will to do as you wish, KRS could opt for a simular system, ie pay once for the tools and be done, cant see why as the same tools are going to be given away for free. Other options are royalties per download, aka Union Pacific et al, or single shot payments per product.

Now single shot for lets say a whole route package might be almost viable, but single shot for say Thompson or Peppercorn packs, or MTs fragonset pack, dont think so, too messy and who decides the cut off areas if there grouped into brands, lot of logisitical work there....which eats into your final profits figure.

[mickoo737]

After what I've found out from the KRS demo and recent discussions here, I thought I'd lay my cards on the table:
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 423#729423

It's not what I wanted to do.....


Doug

Doug, interesting and valid points, well aired to boot, l dont think you are the only one feeling the same way, in fact l've yet to chat to any developer of substance whos pretty much not thinking the same or very close to the same, or has that approach as one of the possible future options.

l'd all but given up on MSTS, l haven't tried MSTSbin yet but other advances in key areas are interesting, interesting enough to think about some future effort, for all its faults MSTS is highly adaptable and flexible and is completely open structure, and that to me is paramount, the ability to do what ever l want, in my own time, to my own schedule and quality at a whim, or not too....if l choose.

The other point raised above is one l and many others dread, its the company A picking what there doing at the expense of company B and C, its called baggsi's and those first off the mark will grab all the good stuff and leave the rest to pickings, even worse, and experience has shown this, those companies then do not carry out there intentions, there by stifling other teams for doing that work.

Its a crock, the only way things get better is down to simple competition, once a particular model is built, who decides when its time to let someone else build a new and better one ?, is it when sales reach below a certain level ?, or when someone offers a bigger lollipop back hander ?.

[johndibben]

PS John your only a consumer....... if there's anything to consume.
And a tailless dog can't wag anything....only bark.

That is very true regarding KRS but I was talking generally about trainsimming payware as a consumer of payware be it MSTS or Trainz.

The dog has a tail and a bark and it's using both

However, EA havn't produced a trainsimming program with spyware, issued a license to anyone or even completed the simulation.

It may only be beer money in the UK but it's the most fought over round of drinks I've ever come across

And I had a holiday at Butlins in the 1970's

Cheers

John

[Russardo]

Just some of my thoughts:

1. The licence agreement is more than likely put in place for Kuju to increase their earnings. However, through the licence agreement the add-ons may receive more marketing (e.g. appearing on Rail Simulator website as official add-on) and therefore greater sales, which may negate the licence fee.

2. Rail simulation is a huge hobby, followed and developed by many enthusiasts. But at the moment I think MSTS is only for the enthusiasts. With rail simulator Kuju/EA's ambition must be to get into the mass market as much as possible, and appeal to a broad spectrum of people. Having a whole product "suite" (i.e. official Kuju published add-ons) may improve the appeal.

3. The general theme from Kuju is that they will support the community etc. I think they realise that they need the community to make it a success. Although a licence agreement isn't ideal, and can probably be seen as greedy (or even meddling in others business), I think that Kuju will be careful not to drive developers away. I.e. the licence agreement must work for the developers as well as for Kuju.

MSTS is poor, so poor that freeware software from a Japanese teenager and content from freeware developers can produce a simulation that is more realistic. Therefore, although I am sceptical as to how good rail simulator will be, I am looking forward to it, as the standard of rail simulation neeeds to be raised. I would prefer not to shoot them down until I am absoloutley clear on these aspects.

[jbilton]

Hi
John ...yes well the petty 'pay war' days squabbles were well over before I started train simming....so I can't, and wouldn't want to comment.
As to the dogs tail(s), I had originally assumed you were referring to the current UK outline developers as tails,with Kuju being the dog?.
So as you say, if Kuju haven't issued any licences...there cannot technically be any tails.
If there aren't ever any tails...then the dog can't wag them.....and the consumers can't buy them either....so they are not consumers anymore, they are just people with a simulator without UK outline routes and trains....thats what I meant.
As I've posted a few times before, I'm purely here for the simming...no axes to grind, and no foot in anyones camp....if I see something likely to harm the hobby...I speak out without fear or favour.
I'm not sure the vigour and enthusiasm is still in freeware, as much as it was.
For the good of the hobby, I certainly hope and wish to be proved quite wrong.
However this latest announcement does bode well to me.....far too much secrecy for one.
Cheers
Jon

[johndibben]

Hi
John ...yes well the petty 'pay war' days squabbles were well over before I started train simming....so I can't, and wouldn't want to comment.

I'd agree but squabbles as to what was acceptable and that which wasn't continued for all to see until this year. Kuju will end that by enforcing their standards onto what is their sim. Our choice is simple. We buy into Kuju or not. Most sales are from shops or online by punters who're not interested in trainsimming politics or personalities.

As to the dogs tail(s), I had originally assumed you were referring to the current UK outline developers as tails,with Kuju being the dog?.
So as you say, if Kuju haven't issued any licences...there cannot technically be any tails.
If there aren't ever any tails...then the dog can't wag them.....and the consumers can't buy them either....so they are not consumers anymore, they are just people with a simulator without UK outline routes and trains....thats what I meant.

The Kuju newsletter talks of tools being made available to commercial groups and references to NDA's clearly show Kuju are working with those who've accepted what I'd imagine to be a great challenge.

As I've posted a few times before, I'm purely here for the simming...no axes to grind, and no foot in anyones camp....if I see something likely to harm the hobby...I speak out without fear or favour.
I'm not sure the vigour and enthusiasm is still in freeware, as much as it was.
For the good of the hobby, I certainly hope and wish to be proved quite wrong.
However this latest announcement does bode well to me.....far too much secrecy for one.
Cheers
Jon

I've posted I'm here for various reasons which are all connected to simming and like yourself I'll also speak out without fear or favour as I've no one to fear and receiving no favours. I too wish to see trainsimming thrive without regard to financial gain.

Kuju are now the most open sim developer to date at this stage before release.

The steam has gone out of freeware for myself as others are paid or receive other benefits for the same effort although with more responsibility.

However, any commercials leaving will create a gap somwhere and that will provide incentive for freeware if only to make that which cannot be obtained elsewhere.

MSTS is now very much about creating something but without someone to make stuff for as authors probably outnumber users. That's unsustainable.

I'll wait until KRS is released before passing judgement as it's the only way I know to make it and I don't wish to shape it's development in any way whatsover any more than I would a model railway manufacturer.

I will defend it on the idea of inncoent until proven guilty out of self-interest and that is a position I find has no conflict with anyone who, like myself, simply wants another sim and is content for Kuju to make of it what they will realising that they won't please everyone and it's pointless trying.

Cheers

John

[3DTrains]

official Kuju published add-ons

I can't speak for the rules in Europe, but there are laws against such a monopolistic approach here in the States.

(Note: In 2003, Kuju had plans for an MSTS add-on company called "Train Zoo, Ltd", but then quickly dropped the idea (for reasons known only to themselves). To do the same with KRS, either under the EA, Kuju, or another banner as an "official" add-on would be dangerous.)

I think that Kuju will be careful not to drive developers away.

Then perhaps instead of posting polls in this and other fora, they should focus on ensuring that they contact as many commercial teams as possible - if nothing but out of courtesy. AFAIK, they've contacted only two N. American outfits, which leaves me wondering if the playing field is truly as "level" as they claim. Joining their mailing list produced nothing, and emails go unanswered. Am I, or the dozen or so other NA companies, to wait until the official release?

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[gallop3ta]

Hard to believe that you weren't first on the list Marc.
We haven't heard a thing as well but then they probably don't
count us downunder.
Cheers
Ian

[3DTrains]

Sorry - I didn't mean for it to sound like sour grapes, just that I found it odd that those I know well over here haven't been contacted.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[Lad491]

Having just caught the announcement I was greatly encouraged. It seems the main complainants are those in the Commercial market, because they are not Commercial operations in the true sense of the word, but, as someone else said, more cottage industries doing it for the cash. They certainly have the most to lose.

Personally i have very few Commercial Add-ons and loads of freeware ones. Since freeware is being actively supported and the tools will be the same whether you are a freeware or commercial developer I dont see any problem. If all the freeware routes currently available for MSTS were to be migrated to KRS then their future is rosey indeed. Likewise KUJU have stated that other web sites can host freeware as well as their own - so ukts still has a future.

I think the future looks rosey - except maybe for those wanting to make a buck or two