Add On Announcement

[steampsi]

Depends on the license agreement, which I'd like to see a copy of (download from site pls?) before I throw too many knives, but per copy royalties scaled to the sell price would be better than a fixed sum because it still allows the smaller commercial ventures to be viable, ie one doesn't have to stump money up front, so if a venture does not get completed or doesn't sell no big money loss.

Pros:
Better quality control ? (debateable, see below)
Kuju make money, franchise continues, patches & new versions follow.
Better edit tools
Developers can check to see if planned content is already in progress to save a duplicated/wasted effort ? (hopefully)

Cons:
Possibly less volume & variety of add ons
Higher price of add ons
Don't want to argue with Kuju about content - quality is in the eye of the beholder - some want more trees, some want better activities etc.

My vote:
I'd like to see royalties that scale with the selling price so that the small venture, like potentially me with a small add on - 1 or 2 locos and 1 or 2 routes, can be viable If there is an up front fee then that will scare off the smaller ventures

We intend to adopt a common sense approach to such cases and will work out arrangements on a case by case basis

double thumbs up.

[MikeTrams]

I was thinking of doing the 50 as a "Project" for KRS.

Although I am well into these electrics right now.

I do enjoy this hobby and do what I do for the love of it above all else (feel free to gag now)


I can see some nice freeware coming post release if commercial turns out to not be viable though.



Tim C

Oh sorry you can do it if you like

Well my 50 might be in there, just giving it a long thought before I sign anything

The 50 is owned by me and a Trainz group called UKBL http://www.magandy.net/

Mike

Hi Mike
Some of that stocks looks rather good.............but I can't see a class50 ?
Do they work in TRS 2004, as I own a copy of that, but never installed.
Cheers
Jon

Oh sorry,



Yes it is for 04, but not released yet

All the best,
Mike

[bigvern]

With regard to freeware, the implication seems that routes may still be on the large side to offer as download hence the reference to postage costs presumably to supply CD's.

Which raises the age old MS debate of how much is a fair price to cover postage costs? £1.50, £2.00, £4.00 etc and each siuation is different depending on any third party fees, allowance for dud CD's losses in the post etc.

"Case by case basis" - it could take weeks or months to get permission depending on how the scheme is administered.

Unless I missed something, the statement does not mention anything as regards the status of independent subscription websites, i.e. UKTS ot Train-sim.com wonder how they figure in this?

[mickoo737]

I can't for the life of me see what part of this announcement poses a threat to MSTSbin. Was there some hidden text that I missed?

Can we try and keep our discussion a bit lucid?

No hidden text, it was all just hypothosizing, Kuju look to want to control there addon outlets, its a small leap of imagination that they might also want to control that environment and by deduction that also means anything externally that might have an impact on future sales.

Vern, good point, taking it one further, if Kuju are going to proof all commercial addons then are they also going to ship them, in which case, whats the future for Contact Sales, Just Trains etc etc.

Who decides what is good and what is not, those not in favour in court could be penalised, those walking hand in hand could get favoured, either by release schedules of preferential rates. Even in best case scenarios the system will generate distrust between factions, which is particularly annoying as most UK commercial teams are now working closer together than we have ever seen, eg the class 89 project.

Once again just hypothosizing.

[jbilton]

Hi
Yes I can easily see the connection. If they felt the Bin patch as a threat to KRS. Especially if it has functions which KRS hasn't got.
The big decider for me will be the physics of the new game,which hopefully will be superior
As I'm not convinced the graphics are that much superior ATM.
I should add though that I am grateful to Kuju for the attempting of a new rail simulator, which lets face it is a bit of a niche market at best.
Also of course for the original, which has given me hundreds of hours of pleasure (and pain).
When PCs first came out I used to dream of having a simulator that does what MSTS does.
Cheers
Jon

[jpantera]

I cant see how the bin patch will improve MSTS beyond a new sim. MSTS still has the awful physics and editor bugs that make me wish they had spent another 2 years developing it before release. If KRS is better than MSTS by a long way (which is still likely) then I will drop MSTS at the first hurdle and get into the editors of the new sim.

Advances in other games/sims such as first person shooters like F.E.A.R and GTA San Andreas have been incredible, meanwhile we are left with a 6 year old program that has the physics of a 1988 DOS simulation. If KRS is poor then it will go in the bin and I will await another 6 years until the next one!

[johndibben]

Very good news and feel very confident that commercial add-ons will appear and that the bar will be raised well beyond anything we've seen to date as regards modelling skills.

The dog is wagging the tail as it should be.

Commercials will have a firm commercial footing which has to better than nothing or some form of old boys ageement which could well exclude some of them. It appears a level playing field and lessens the scope for argument. Kuju will stand or fall by the standards they set but it is their product.

Allowing distribution of freeware by other sites is a guarrantee I failed to recieve in such plain terms elsewhere.

We all had it easy with MSTS as MS abandoned it early on and said so many times. Lack of control from the very top caused problems. People could be forgiven for wondering who owned it.

As I understand it MSTSBin can't be used by commercials and so their concern would appear convenient as opposed to understandable. MSTSBin is a valliant effort to keep MSTS going until a replacement is found and should be placed in context.

We, the consumers, matter most and Kuju are taking the responsibility which MS failed to do.

Those who do not want to work with Kuju except under their own conditions are free not to do so and there's little need for them to say so.

Those who do want to work with Kuju are probably working very hard but cannot say anything.

In this case silence is golden.

No one is indispensible or ever was and I would've thought that fact would've sunk in much better by now given previous bitter experience.

Cheers

John

[jonnysmooth]

I don't think this is 'terrible news' Coming from planet Trainz there were some payware items that were worth having, and others that were obviously dreadful.

If there were some QA for the Auran content then I'm sure the excellent payware routes that come to mind would sail through and some of the dubious steam engines churned out by a certain creator would die a death. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Also good to see that freeware will not be controlled and I can get on with my hobby!

Cheers.

Jon

[arabiandisco]

I don't see a problem with it, personally. I suppose the important thing is how much this license idea will cost, I am sure Kuju know what the margins are like, and won't pitch it to a point where these add-ons will be unviable. Maybe some commercial groups will fall by the wayside, but that would have happened anyhow.

The crucial thing to me is that freeware will be unrestricted.

Another MSTS was never really on the cards.

[jbilton]

Hi
Well I'm pleased to see a poll has been opened by Kuju....may be they are listening.
The UK market is very different from the German and USA markets.
I think it is to do with the amount of excellent freeware.
Look at French, all their commercial teams packed up ages ago.
Generally speaking the UK developers are small, and do not make the big profits that others imagine.
There is never any money in route building especially.
Now if everyone is happy to drive German trains on USA routes all well and good...but it wouldn't interest me.
At the moment a £25 addon makes about £3 to the developers....so you can guess where the rest goes.
If Kuju add another £20 or £30 to this price....then sales are likely to hit rock bottom.
This would set up a negative spiral....less sales higher prices.
However as stated this would benefit freeware, if people have and are still willing to devote the time.
Cheers
Jon

PS John your only a consumer....... if there's anything to consume.
And a tailless dog can't wag anything....only bark.

[ianmacmillan]

I don't see the difference between a commercial licence for the Kuju tools and the licence required by TSM and others for commercial use.

Provided it's not too expensive and only one licence is needed by the commercial companies for use of all their staff.

My big worry is that the licenced copy of the tools will be better than the one included with the sim, making freeware inferior.

[jbilton]

I don't see the difference between a commercial licence for the Kuju tools and the licence required by TSM and others for commercial use.

Provided it's not too expensive and only one licence is needed by the commercial companies for use of all their staff.

My big worry is that the licenced copy of the tools will be better than the one included with the sim, making freeware inferior.

Hi Ian
Well I'm afraid there is a big difference.
Try reading what the Kuju statement actually says.
Cheers
Jon

[phat2003uk]

Looks like the rumours are in fact what is in store for us all.
Let's hope that all if not most payware providers band together and ignore all of Kuju's advances.
Without the add ons the sim becomes a dud.
IMHO they have shot themselves in the foot well and truly through greed.
As most payware providers are small cottage operations if the figures being rumoured are fact as well , all will be either working for nothing or at a big loss.
Personally I think the Bin patches once the bugs are ironed out will be a real threat to this new sim.
Let's face it , if someone had have said 12 months ago that it was possible to do what we can now do ,we would have been calling for the straight jacket.
In twelve months time the mind boggles as to where it might be by then
if George can tweak some more out of the old girl.
Wouldn't it be ironical if Kuju's five year old work becomes the big danger to KRS.
The way they are going Kuju and EA will themselves turn people away from this sim.
What is needed now is for all to ignore them for a change.
Then some time down the track the alarm bells will be ringing as to why they can't get payware providers.
After all it is all controlled by supply and demand.
All it needs is a bit of solidarity between us all.
Cheers
Ian

I don't think you realise how poor MSTS actually is really. I am positive you'll see a big difference in KRS. The problem is that we've been used to a 5 year old sim for too long.

[AndiS]

Jon & Ian, the statement actually says:
"there is a cost associated with the programme" - it does not say anything about amount of cost and calculation scheme (fixed, per sold copy, or anything else).
"the toolkit we provide to add-on providers and that provide in the box will be exactly the same" - the point where freeware authors will feel in a disadvantage may be CAD programs - unless there is some Gmax deal.

My overall impression is that the statement is very clear on the freeware side: Full toolset in the box, no restrictions regarding content servers. And it is very unclear on the payware side: "cost", "will require Kuju approval" vs. "a third party QA service". Here, clarification seems to be available by email from Claire only.

[mjt222]

Once again just hypothosizing.

Michael, more fact than hypothosizing mate, iv said the same all the way through as you know so here it is at last out in the public domain, and the very slim few who actually agree with this have surfaced already

Martin