No ""Save As" option, unbelievable.

[RSderek]

To be fair there were some 'idiot-esk' decisions made on Rail Simulator.

We at RSDL do not take any offense to the above post and understand that some of the elements of Rail Sim can be a bit frustrating. However all I say is try not to make it personal.
No matter what you think we worked hard and put long hours in, if it's not good enough for some then it is not from lack of effort.

We are currently working on ways to make the Sim more friendly but at the end of the day it is a complicated bit of software that allows users to do a wide range of different things.

RSAdam and I are both working hard trying to help those with issues.

regards

Derek

[paulhydey2]

Roger T appears to be talking about editing scenarios (now he has given more details of his problem) rather than editing a route as orrignaly stated.

If you want to edit a scenario and keep the original then is it not possible to package a scenario as if you where about to distribute it? Then open the scenario edit it, including changing the name, and then rei-install the original scenario from the package? I haven't tryed this myself yet, so can't confirm if it work but it would seem a lot easier and take a lot less time and disk space than backingup the entire route.

Paul

[growler37]

Hi
if you think this is complicated,try MSTS1 route editor,were one wrong mouse click could result in weeks of work being lost.
So as many have said before,back up! then back up again to be on the save side.
one last point,take some time to learn about what goes on under the RS hood,knowing what makes thing work makes route building a lot easier.
who knows you might enjoy it.

with kind regards
kevin

[nwallace]

I am trying to think if Save As for projects (which is what a route GUID covers) is available at solution level or project level in other development tools like Visual studio. I don't think it is, you can save individual files using save as but it usually breaks your project if you then go and delete the original.

Though making a copy is easy as you just grab the whole folder and move it somewhere else then open it again.

There hasn't been development tools provided with a Microsoft Operating system since Dos 6.22 which had QBasic included.

Once you go beyond just playing a game then you are beyond the realms of "consumer".
Software or Content development is NOT a consumer task, and if you are not capable of a bit of investigation, problem solving and simple file operations then you sir are the Idiot.

[sniper297]

Well, show you what an idiot I am, I assumed you were talking about "save as" for the WORLD editor, not the scenario editor. To clone scenarios, plant a new marker, give it a new name, save, exit, copy the scenario.bin from the original scenario's alphanumeric soup folder to the new one.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showpo ... ostcount=8

Scenarios.bin in the main folder for each route has info for all the scenarios regarding starting location, time, season, and weather, and which 123gobbledygookxyz folder the rest of the info is in, so if you copy the scenario.bin from one folder to another you get all the services and loose consists duplicated.

EDIT: And I just noticed, why is this in the Route Building forum instead of the Scenario Creation forum?! :bad-words: You evil Redcoats are deviously deceptive!

[cgbcgb]

[...]
Once you go beyond just playing a game then you are beyond the realms of "consumer".
Software or Content development is NOT a consumer task, and if you are not capable of a bit of investigation, problem solving and simple file operations then you sir are the Idiot.

On the other hand RSDL did not provide what you call "consumers" with any other means to quickly and easily save their own modifications or quick scenarios. A situation is created in which more or less convoluted steps are necessary for something that any "consumer" expects to be basic functionality (i. e. the "Save as...").

Rail SImulator is full of quirks (like the lack of "Save as...", the convoluted folder names for scenarios or the fact that you cannot save multiple moments when playing) and non-standard interface elements (non-resizeable and non-moveable pop-up windows, lists that cannot be scrolled properly or that only contain the first few elements, scroll bars with different behaviour in different contexts, just to name a few).

I'm in full favour of deviating from standards if that brings improvement but all deviations from accepted or expected standards I've found in the game so far are just excentric (to be very bland). But maybe I'm just missing some subtle point...

Regards, Cristian.

[bigvern]

Once you go beyond just playing a game then you are beyond the realms of "consumer".
Software or Content development is NOT a consumer task, and if you are not capable of a bit of investigation, problem solving and simple file operations then you sir are the Idiot.

Not really. Part of the marketing from EA/Kuju et al was the ability of end users to create their own routes with ease. Even the header for this area of the forum still maintains it is a "simple route editor" (hah!) despite all the reported issues.

Level, Mission or World editors are a common feature in many games and while the complexity varies the supply implies an expectation the player will make use of them.

Many titles require you to work akin to this to play the game. At it's most basic level, a blank area in Sim City or for that matter any of the Transport/Railroad Tycoon games requires you to become a "developer" as you are working with tools to manipulate the world. The latter also include tools to create your own scenarios or worlds which are clear and easy to use, as well as allowing projects to be saved with logical filenames. The whole point of any computer game is to make you think and problem solve to achieve the end result - even FPS on a console.

MSTS of course made it clear the developer tools were not for the casual user. (Remains to be seen at what level the SDK for MSTS2 will be aimed at).
Zusi doesn't say as much but just opening the Route Editor kind of implies you need a PhD.
Trainz promises easy route building and when you open Surveyor it is apparent that's what you are getting.

One of the basics of any Editor is that you need:
1. A facility to save your work under a different file name if necessary.
2. The ability to exit without saving but not having to resort to Ctrl-Alt-Del or a reboot to do so!

[RSderek]

Welcome back Vern

[Retro]

Vern has made some sensible points in his post. Although IMHO the various tools that come with a variety of Programs vary considerably in their ease of use. In the The Sims2 you can build quite complex lots ( Homes, Shops etc.) simply but if you want to start producing non standard Community Lots, Dorms and Lots with garages that are not detached you then start having to do quite a bit of Boolpropping and turning off protection features. There is no save as option that I can find.If you make mistakes you can seriously mess things up. The Mission Editor in the Silent Hunter Series is not easy to use. I also used to produce Airports for Flight Simulator and although tools did not come with FS. Third Party Developers helped here. But it was a time consuming and difficult task.
The MSTS Route Editor I found very tricky but the Activity Editor was very good. With any of these programs you go as far as you are able and at a level you feel comfortable with.
As for KRS I find the Route Editor to be fairly easy to use once you get the hang of it. It woulf be nice if as Vern points out you could have the option to exit easily without saving built in to the UI, this would be a big improvement.
I have been able to produce all I want using the Normal User Interface unlike The Sims 2 mentioned above. The save as option I suppose would be an improvement if it where possible but I find making backups physically is a safer method of preserving your work and gives you complete control.
Regards James

[Acorncomputer]

Hello Vern!

You are looking at the faults from the viewpoint of an established 'developer' but whilst I have been using MSTS for five years, I am not an experienced route builder as I found the MSTS interface difficult and not very pleasurable to use. Wearing the hat of a beginner to route building, then, I took to Rail Simulator straight away without the dogma of tradition or expectation and whilst there are certainly a few quirks to keep in mind and acknowledged shortfalls, I too have been able to do all I want to do so far with my use of the game.

Buy back your copy of Rail Simulator and have another go but perhaps this time start with an open mind - we really need the input and skills of people like you.

GP

[bigvern]

No plans to repurchase at the moment.

May do so in the future when there is one unified version (UK/US) which incorporates all the patches , has proper signalling and timetable routines implemented and does away with the current blueprint/separate Asset Editor/track rules etc. for a more user friendly interface on those aspects. It will also have the developer tools included as part of the purchased install - not having to "sign up" for a separate download.

Anyhow at present really a bit too busy with other things for route building and at least part of the problem for me (and I'm sure some of the other MSTS old hands) having spent the best part of four years doing it all before, it's just too much like hard work to motivate oneself to start all over again. Leaving aside the procedural issues/bugs with KRS and Route Building the little dabble I did have indicated it is no quicker than any of its predecessors. Which means locking yourself into a project for months not even knowing whether the finished article is going to work.

For now, if I feel like a spot of route building I turn to the tried and established TRS.

Tried input but unfortunately anything perceived as remotely unhelpful pounced on by the attack dogs and (some of) the mods. Unfortunately, UKTS does not seem to be a place to be very critical of RS - even in a constructive manner.

[RSderek]

Vern, you want to sample being on this side of the table.

I/We/RSDL welcomed your input.
But if it is not for you then fine, hopefully we can tempt you back, if not, no worries.
Life is too short.

Just have fun,

and remember it is nice to be important but it is more important to be nice

best regards

Derek