Cabs

[jimmyshand]

Following on from an interesting debate which started on the DT Class 40 thread I thought that the subject of cabs warrants its own general discussion.

There seems to be a majority feeling that loco models are more important than the cabs and sounds. For me the cab is absolutely crucial and without it you don't have a simulator at all. Cabs seem to be a major sticking point in RS with only a handfull of clever chaps managing to produce any. It's a crying shame as the 3D fully interactive and viewable cabs are one of the strongest selling points of RS and for me are what make the simulator stand far above any others. The quality of the FGW HST cab for example is astounding and as lifelike as is possible to get. If only more like that could be released this sim would be world class.

It would be interesting to hear others thoughts on this sticking point as it seems to be preventing the advancement and release of several add-ons that are in the pipeline.

[jimmyshand]

That does indeed seem to be the general rule in Flight Sims that anything payware comes with custom sounds and cockpit.

I remember 2 years or so back when RS was first released, within a few weeks Digital Traction had posted on their website some stunning images of highly detailed models of Class 20, 87, 40 etc. 2 years later and the 40 has appeared but without cab or sounds? Makes me think that cab building and sound must be extremely difficult in RS.

Even Just Trains who seem to be at the cutting edge of development seem to be taking an age with models like the Class 60. We saw fully completed models of the locos months back but still no sign of release. I can only think again that the cab or sounds must be the sticking point?

That said, steamies seem to be well catered for with many freeware models released, some even with custom cabs. The problem seems to be in diesel or electric development.

[simuk]

Even Just Trains who seem to be at the cutting edge of development seem to be taking an age with models like the Class 60. We saw fully completed models of the locos months back but still no sign of release. I can only think again that the cab or sounds must be the sticking point?

We're working on sounds and scenarios for the 60, but everything else (bar final testing and wrapping in to an installer) is done. Much like the Autoballaster, which is "done", apart from a final scenario which is on hold until after RailWorks is released.

[rich0984]

For me the cab is absolutely crucial and without it you don't have a simulator at all.

I agree, I've discussed this with someone before and decided if I had to have one or the other I'd rather have a cab than an exterior view altogether. I won't be purchasing the class 40 till there's a cab as I would not get any enjoyment out of it unless it had the correct cab and to an extent sounds. Another important point with cabs is lighting of the cab itself and dials at night, one which hopefully, if the cover is anything to go by, will be delivered in Railworks. A more far fetched ideas that I think would enhance cabs would be the allowance of some movement vertically and horizontally as in Flight Simulator and a set of different sounds for inside the cab which Just Trains touched on with the Voyager as the horn sound is different inside and outside the cab.

[AndyUK]

I too would expect a custom cab and sounds for payware traction. I would also expect the controls and gauges in the cab to operate as per prototype. Having been disappointed by the RSDL Class 66 in the latter respect, although the situation was retrieved by Dave B's fix, I wonder if the forthcoming Just Trains Class 60 is any better? Or in other words does the bogie brake pressure gauge respond to the loco brake control, is the PBL train brake control properly modelled and is the driver's vigilence device simulated?

Andy L

[bigvern]

For something like the Class 40 it is heresy to alias it to a Class 47 - totally different sound. You could probably get away with aliasing a Peak to the Duff as they were similar (albeit Peaks screamed a bit more). Cabs I'm not maybe so fussed about but I recall we had this debate before about DT products. The consensus then was pretty much that if you're doing a payware model, you need to research/record/license the appropriate sounds and employ someone with the necessary skills to mix them in the sim. MSTS, TRS and BVE all have authentic sounding 40's so no excuse not to aspire to that for RS.

[Sly401]

Are Cabs difficult ? and if so why.

Here's some thoughts to consider.

References.. a search on the web will produce an infinate amount of external images for almost any chosen class.
Cab shots are pretty rare.

Result, probably you will have to gain your own access to a cab and digitally document it.

Reference quality.. It can be extremely dificult because of the closed enviroment to get the shots from different angles, lighting too can create problems.

Number of components... Cabs are made up of a fairly large number of individual components.. not many are duplicated / mirrored.

Viewing range.... The cab view will only give close range shots of your modelled cab.. therefore the model and textures need to be high res.

Animation........ Many individual animations.. each linked to its own control ned to be programmed,

Working internally.... Can cause a few problems and requires the modeller to adapt his tecnique in some circumstaces.

Operation consistency... Andy UK , illustrates the point...... Not only do we have to make a model but are expected to know / find all the intimate operational nuances, pressure gauges flicker as brake applied ...
come on if you want that fidelity, model at 12 inch to a foot. It can be done but the next model will be out in six years time.

Limited contributors...... with limited contributors and only limited prototypes represented so far, where can our time be most productive ? our choice

I intend to prove one way or another although DT may have already done it.... whether role players ( train drivers) or train watchers are in the majority. by selling constituent components seperately...
To reiterate the total price will be the same as if it were all one package.

To me a new loco at £4.99 will seem like a bargain, whereas a custom cab at the same price would seem a luxury I could live without ( I don't drive from the cab )

Applying the same price to loco and cab is being very generous to the cab element.. if time and effort were the factors used to split the price it would be more like 2 to 1 for the cab with my present skill set.



Sly

[AndyUK]

...Operation consistency... Andy UK , illustrates the point...... Not only do we have to make a model but are expected to know / find all the intimate operational nuances, pressure gauges flicker as brake applied ...
come on if you want that fidelity, model at 12 inch to a foot. It can be done but the next model will be out in six years time.

I think you're stretching what I said a bit far by referring to flickering gauges! I'd settle for the gauges just responding to the parameters they are there to display. Don't forget that we're talking payware here, not freeware, so why not expect the developer to obtain the data required to model such things as gauges and controls correctly? Dave Brindley has shown that it's not difficult to do, and that in no way is to diminish his achievements, so why not expect the same from payware out of the box? Having built the cab the number of man hours to implement its contents correctly would be minimal so cost and time ought not to be an issue. Would it have taken RSDL any longer to give the 66 the correct number of power notches or the HST and Class 166 notched brakes with partial release?

Such fidelity is taken for granted in the Flight Sim aircraft addon world. Before anyone says that you pay a lot more for a decent aircraft than a loco don't forget that to produce something like a working FMC and custom autopilot calls for thousands of lines of code, not the few lines of lua script and a couple of tweaks to a stock blueprint required to simulate things like proper brake controls, working gauges and a vigilence device in a loco.

I suspect that the market for addon aircraft is orders of magnitude greater than that for addon RailSim locos and therefore the number of people like me looking for something more than a very nice looking model is too small to influence things. If the market grows then perhaps it will attract developers with the level of technical knowledge and programming skills required to deliver what I'm looking for. At the moment it looks like I'll have to wait for good samaritans like DaveB to fill the void or learn how to do it myself!

Andy L

[kingsgate]

Gentlemen,

We will supply cabs, and we will supply sounds. What we won't do is supply all three at once. The reason? A lack of staff. We have two fully trained modellers here, myself included, plus one trainee (Danny) and a routebuilder. I have a full time job. I volunteer at the GCR at the weekends. I just don't have the time to go out and photograph cabs, and I don't have the equipment to do sound recordings. We have a full set of Class 40 sounds here, but no time or knowledge to get them into the simulator.

I've repeated myself time and time again. You can't just want. I want, I want, I want is all I've heard for months now. Give it a rest. We know you all want everything perfect. We will do what we can when we can. At least we try, instead of giving an excuse as to why we can't do it. Please, all of you, have some patience, take a step back, and stop complaining. Everything in it's time. If two people step forwards now, one offering to do cabs, the other sounds, you could have both by the end of the month. It's that simple. Give me the staff and I'll give you the goods. Can't be any fairer, can I?

Tor-K

P.s. Please, no backlash, no complaints about a lecture, I've heard it all before, and I'm tired of it. If you want to complain, my email is in my profile, by all means, send me a properly worded complaint and I'll attend to it forthwith.

[jimmyshand]

I'm quite amazed at the apparently high number of people who use RS 'outside the cab'. When I use RS (and Flight Sim X for that matter) I spend 99% of the time in the cab/cockpit in the drivers seat and only a minimal amount of time outside looking at the model. Naively I have assumed that everyone else does the same!!
Just goes to show you how different everyone is and the different requirements they have from the sim. For me it's all about simulating the operation of the real thing and you don't see train drivers leaping from the cab at 125mph to get a quick lineside shot or a pilot slipping out the window to admire his machine at 37,000ft!!

If people use rail simulators on the large as a 'trainspotting' game then I guess it explains why MSTS is still alive and kicking and thriving. It must get pretty boring trainspotting in RS with the minimal stock available!!

[jimmyshand]

Tor-k please don't take any offence, as you say you are at least doing it and one of only a very few that are. This is just a discussion that is bound to happen as the simulator develops and grows to a new level, look on it as good marketing information as to what customers want.

Total respect to Digital Traction who are trying to make things happen.

[simuk]

At the moment it looks like I'll have to wait for good samaritans like DaveB to fill the void or learn how to do it myself!

Andy L

If you do decide to learn how to do it yourself, get in contact once you have - we're always looking for talented people who are able to add more realism to products...

Simon
Just Trains

[Sly401]

Andy UK

Nope... fidelity is not taken for granted in the flight sim world, what is taken for granted is the developers interpretation.

If in doubt read Eric Browns interpretation of the aircraft responces... and then compare with other real life pilots comments... all different

Also I presume that you have first hand knowledge of just what is involved in creating a "correct" cab.. together with all the nuances of a multitude of prototypes... why not offer your services ?

We could always use "Expert" help.

If you wish to supply a list of all the parameters that you would like to see in my 56 cab.. I will put in whatever is physically possible.. a custom cab made just for you to your spec no charge... everyone else will just have to wait until I satisfy your needs.. maybe then you will be able see the true cost.... the time involved


Top and bottom line is your views are extreme (and I suspect ) most developers will attempt to supply an enjoyable experience to the majority users... 4 or six notches matters not to me


JimmyShand

Shouldn't be surprised at the number of train watchers.. there are millions around the world that watch realworld railways and millions more that watch / construct model railways.

Why should it be a read that people who use RS, want to use role play and pretend to be an engine driver ?

As for sounds... stated before anyone want to take a pepsi challenge ?

Sly

[kingsgate]

So are we! There's a fair shortage.

Tor-K

[jimmyshand]

Sly I know there are millions who 'watch trains' around the world but in a simulator I presumed the emphasis would be on actually having a go yourself. If I wanted to watch trains I would pop down the road and watch real trains for free every single day. Anyone can go and watch trains or planes but very few actually get to sit behind the controls and drive it themselves. That's what a simulator is for me, a chance to do something that you can't in the real world.

Each to their own I guess