Just Trains - Bristol T.M to Exeter S.D?

[Oldpufferspotter]

Hi SloopJonB,
If you soon get bored with a route, and you haven't time to create your own, have you tried creating scenarios?
I find creating cenarios very absorbing, and get quite a buzz when I drive a train up to a junction station with signals against me, and two AI trains arrive and cross my path. Those two trains make a 'connection' with each other, one moves off, the other stays in the bay platform, and then my signal clears to allow me over several tracks to gain a branch line.
It's all fictional, route and train service, but it works!
regards Ted.

[tango4262]

Im not even going to bother saying what i'd usually say, because clearly i'm wasting my time.


Overmarze,


I know you have built a custom route, but try building an accurate one and make a release date to finish it by and try sticking to it then see what happens, I know because i've been there myself a few times, and the result can be quite unexpected and overwhelming.


Kind Regards


Dave

[M1ckran]

Let's just give people the time they need to do a good job to their own satisfaction.

Creative people rely so much on inspiration to produce their best work, that any sort of hassle just destroys the mood and prolongs the job. Once the art of creation becomes a drudge, you might aswell give up because the end product will never satisfy anyone. I wonder how many promising projects have been buried due to the author losing enthusiasm for it.

You also have to consider that the improving standard of freeware probably means that payware needs to undergo serious revisions and upgrades before it's even released, just to keep ahead of the competition. I'm not sure I will buy this route because I'm more into historical railways (you never know though), but I'm sure it will be worth it when it's finally released.

Michael

[sjbaker34]

Maybe we should just release rubbish half-finished stuff so we could rush it out and make a quick buck, without testing stuff and making sure it's as pefect as possible.

What like EuropeanBahn

Darren
73E

[growler37]

Hi
I am simply amazed by some peoples views,i can only assume they have not tried to build a high detailed route for RS, the amount of effort and time involved is just immense.
i have spent over a year building my West Somerset Route so far and still have quite a way to go yet,if i had been asked at the begining for an estimate on when it would be released i would have said,about six months! so it just goes to show.
just cut the guys at just trains some slack,it,ll be released when there good and ready and thats the end of it,its never a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you!

Best regards
Kevin

[ashgray]

Maybe we should just release rubbish half-finished stuff so we could rush it out and make a quick buck, without testing stuff and making sure it's as pefect as possible.

What like EuropeanBahn

Darren
73E

Actually, that's not as funny as you seem to think it is Darren. Any repeat of this sort of attitude may earn you a formal warning or worse - read Section 3 of the Forum Guidelines please.

Ash

[bigvern]

Although I've no involvement with the JT project and indeed don't even know who is actually building the route, my sympathy comes down firmly on their side. I've just started another freeware route in KRS and scenery placement is averaging about 1km a day, assuming I can set aside two hours to do it. That's in open country and not going overboard with field systems, massive amounts of clutter/undergrowth etc. - basically working to mid-level MSTS standards and recycling old TSM models. That also doesn't include the time taken to lay the track, T key the terrain, go back into GE to create more markers - plus all the speed restriction & signalling then testing which will come after everything else is placed.

Reckon that means around 6km (4 miles) a week, allowing one day off for "good behaviour" or if I'm working Late Turn which means probably nothing gets done on those days. Even Wick to Forsinard via Thurso (about 42 miles) is looking hugely ambitious at those speeds and I reckon if I wanted to get through to Inverness expect the route some time next year... So spare a thought for the guy(s)/gal(s) doing the JT route. That's 76 miles plus the inevitable overlap which is a huge area to work through - particularly to commercial levels of detail and with custom buildings as well.

With the benefit of hindsight quoting a likely release date was probably a mistake but as the community are discovering route creation for KRS is a whole different ball game compared to MSTS and TRS so comes the wisdom of keeping schtum until you can be reasonably certain of a completion date.

Edit:
Thinking a bit further on the above, maybe route building needs to become more a function of time than distance. In the case of my freeware project I want to release something by the beginning of May. So that effectively gives me a cut-off point of about mid-April to stop wherever I am and complete the route to the nearest station/block post. That leaves two weeks to get the signalling etc. in, tidy up, test and write up the documentation. Project delivered on time - barring finding any major glitches. Maybe the payware publishers also need to adopt a similar stance, i.e. say to their developers, "we want a route by xx date." That way the team can choose a prototype to which a logical cut-off can be applied. If JT hadn't announced the route as being Bristol to Exeter but just "something with a West Country flavour", most people would have been pleasantly surprised when Bristol to Taunton popped out, on time with the original timescale. It's obviously going to work better with some prototypes than others and does indeed have the potential to produce what some MSTS pundits disparagingly referred to as "a pointless route going from nowhere to nowhere", but any new route is better than none at all and will give RS fans a chance to flail their rolling stock somewhere different.

[Blackpatch]

i.e. say to their developers, "we want a route by xx date." That way the team can choose a prototype to which a logical cut-off can be applied. If JT hadn't announced the route as being Bristol to Exeter but just "something with a West Country flavour", most people would have been pleasantly surprised when Bristol to Taunton popped out, on time with the original timescale.

Interesting idea but one that I'd personally hate done. It would mean a date dictated route instead of probably quality. The route chosen is logical in that both Bristol and Exeter are both important hubs and if it fell short because they'd run out of time I'd feel a sense of always not completing a journey. It would also mean that the 'want it yesterday' peeps were being catered for which I don't want to see done.

BP

[bigvern]

Interesting idea but one that I'd personally hate done. It would mean a date dictated route instead of probably quality. The route chosen is logical in that both Bristol and Exeter are both important hubs and if it fell short because they'd run out of time I'd feel a sense of always not completing a journey. It would also mean that the 'want it yesterday' peeps were being catered for which I don't want to see done.

BP

Oh yes I can see that view too, but the point for Project Managers would be....
1. You know roughly how long it would take to produce a certain distance of route to the particular standard required and budget against that in the number of weeks/months you allocate.
2. You don't necessarily announce ahead of time the full extent of the route, as I said then it's a bonus whatever is finally revealed. Then the even better news that it's nearly finished and will be on sale/uploaded for distribution in a couple of weeks. If you didn't know the original route was Bristol to Exeter, then Taunton is also a logical point at which to wrap things up. I don't think the approach is appeasing anyone - it's getting content out there, prevent project over-runs and ensures the developer and publisher knows at "x" point they are going to start getting some money for their efforts.

It is so easy in KRS or for that matter MSTS or TRS to fall into the trap of laying mile after mile of track which in reality is about 3% of the workload. Not saying that's what the JT team have done but there is far more to getting a route together than just the infrastructure.

[growler37]

Hi
Yes Vern is right,tracklaying,is the easy bit,the biggest task is scenery placement,my West somerset route is about 30 miles with the section from norton fitzwaren to just beyond taunton,doingthat part was a nice change,from the many many months of scenery placement,if you work it out 30 miles of track =60 miles lineside scenery.
Best regards
Kevin

[maddog989]

i must admit that i too am slightly frustrated about this route, as i have been looking forward to it for some time. I understand that it's not easy to make a route as i've made some myself and it's not easy, and very time consuming to create a decent route, (though simple playing around ones are very easy but i wouldn't expect that)! This route promises several important Scenery objects which need to be created as well as the usual layout of standard trees etc. as there are several important stations and landmarks which help to define the route!

The thing that most annoys me though is the lack of updated screenshots and general progress reports, though i must admit i haven't checked that recently. though i'll put this down to the fact that they're working too hard on the route to do this

I'm just happy as long as this route is still going to be released, it's not the end of the world if it's not as soon as i'd of liked, it would however be a great dissapointment if the route was cancelled, as well as being a great set back for any future releases, which is, what is really needed for Rail Simulator at the moment!

just my thoughts on the matter. i am still eagerly awaiting the route and will buy it as soon as it's released

[RussellW]

Gentlemen - You have all forgotten (or have never heard) Hofstadter's Law which simply states (and is a sublime example of recursion):

"Everything will take twice as long as you think it will take, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law"

Douglas Hofstadter is(was?) the author of "Godel, Escher, Bach - The Eternal Golden Braid" which is mandatory reading for anyone with more than 3 brain cells.

In the harsh world of commercial software, we Project Managers are required to give (and keep to) project schedules - it is no longer acceptable (where I work) to miss a deadline. We do this by applying H's law above and then if top management insist on an earlier delivery date, they sign in blood that we will not be fired when we miss their unrealistic deadline, which we then inevitably do.

Cheers,

Russell Westwood.

[777fred]

I think we should stop fighting/arguing at eachother about it, as JT might just not bother at all because of the moaning.

[ashgray]

I don't think anyone's fighting or arguing about it (and if they were, you could safely leave it to the moderators to handle) but I would urge patience. I'm sure we can all recall freeware projects or commercial products that have failed to please the masses because of a perception that they've been rushed out due to time constraints. Leave the authors to do their thing - you'll get it eventually, when its ready. In the meantime, if your bored, have a go at some of the other add-ons that are available - I can't believe everyone's run all the available scenarios for all the routes currently available - and if by chance you have, well try doing one yourself.....

Ash

[overmarze]

I think we should stop fighting/arguing at eachother about it, as JT might just not bother at all because of the moaning.

Well just not bother with release dates thats what i say.

Maybe there should be a forum vote if sceneros are really needed?
Seeing as thay take so much time to be created.