Atomic Systems

I think it is important to remember that without discussion and debate things just don't get done. James is simply making us aware of problems he has encountered and expressing them in a logical and analytical format. Presenting the facts as he sees them and backing that up with evidence. The fact that some may not agree with all of his views is a normal part of any discussion be it verbal or written. As long as comments, posts and replies are polite and civil there should not be any problems.
Ted and Vern's points on not being a Computer Code Guru are also relevant to the discussion. I am in this catagory myself. As an average user I want to be able to use Rail Simulator within the limits of my abilty and if possible learn a little about other areas that are linked to the Program, which will enable me to gain more enjoyment from it's use.
My concerns are that the program is able to do what the program makers claim and this is possible with reasonable ease having spent the time needed to understand and learn how everything works. I do not expect this to click in overnight and am quite willing to spend as much time as it takes as long as it is mostly a pleasurable experience. This has been the case with most areas of the program for me with the exception of trying to produce Scenarios to a standard I would like to achieve. Most of the problems highlighted by James and others seem to relate to this area. This IMHO needs to be sorted out before I can truly say I enjoy using all aspects of this program. Maybe this is a little utopian or over simplistic and probably not many people will agree with this summary of my opinion on Rail Simulator.
However we all have the right to express our opinions and are lucky to be able to do so.
Regards James

Hi,
Some of the ambitions that Kuju had back in 2005/6 were compromised in the desire to actually get a product out.
When RSDL took over support for RS, we said we'd improve the things that are broke or not finished and we've already made progress here and have more plans for the future.
Not only have we invested time and resources over the past year fixing bugs and adding new features we have also created new content for the product.
We're going to continue in this mission and we'll definitely be making some further fixes to the dispatcher, but also we need to better educate users and developers as to what it can do and how to do it, which has to be said we've not done a great job of to date.
While many people get great pleasure out of rail simulator we understand that there are areas can and will be improved on.
We have been doing what we set out to do which is being committed to improving RS.

regards

Derek

Derek,

that would be far more laudable if it was not for the fact that the Rail Simulator website as it stands now (I am not referring to the 2006 news item, but the "About Rail Simulator" page) still claims that Rail Simulator has lived up to the ambitions that Kuju compromised, such as "completely accurate localised signalling systems with real world functionality including all the bells and whistles" and the ability to "recreate complex real-world operations".

In fact, both claims are demonstrably false.

Is that it?...The wording on the about page?
Is that the reason you call a member of the RSDL staff dishonest because your interpretation of 'recreate complex real-world operations' is not the same as the marketing person who wrote the body of text?

By the way where it says "complex real world operations" does it directly state that the AI is the only thing that does this.

RSderek wrote:Is that it?...The wording on the about page?

Is that the reason you call a member of the RSDL staff dishonest because your interpretation of 'recreate complex real-world operations' is not the same as the marketing person who wrote the body of text?

Firstly, I have not called any specific individual person dishonest, because I do not know what individual or individuals is or are responsible for maintaining that page. Secondly, there is no interpretation of "complex real-world operations" that is consistent with what Rail Simulator can do in its present state. Thirdly, the phrase, "completely accurate localised signalling systems with real world functionality including all the bells and whistles" is precise, unambiguous and false: any deviation from accurate signalling practice is enough to make such an unqualified claim false; in fact, the deviations from reality are very great indeed. Fourthly, if a marketing person with little real knowledge of the product's capability wrote the page, it should have been checked by somebody who did have knowledge of the product's capabilities; failure to do so is dishonesty by recklessness. Fifthly, if those claims ended up on that page by error, it is the responsibility of anybody who knows of the error to remove them or replace them with claims that are not false: the falsity of the claims has been manifest for many months.

Can I ask you, Derek - do you honestly believe that the signalling in Rail simulator is completely accurate?

charlie99 wrote:By the way where it says "complex real world operations" does it directly state that the AI is the only thing that does this.

Complex real-world operations are not possible without the AI, since the player can only drive one train at once, and complex real-world operations require a very large number of trains to operate at once.

jamespetts wrote: <SNIP> failure to do so is dishonesty by recklessness.

James - Whilst there's no ban on offering genine constructive criticism on any product, you are overstepping the mark with this phrase and are in danger of contravening Section 3 of the forum guidelines. You need to step back from this please and adopt a more reasonable stance. Paul has already posted one warning about this thread...

Ashley

There are many areas of the RS website that is currently under construction. The qoute about the signals will be updated.

regards
Derek

Just to follow up on Vern's comments about most users not being programmers or even being able to understand .xml or .lua files. I have a feeling that the original programmers at Kuju only intended this to be a game and that no one was supposed to make any changes at all to the underlying files.

This can be seen by:-
1. The use of hex for filenames in the Routes and Scenarios making it next to impossible for users to work out what was stored and where.
2. Serz.exe was not even supplied with the early copies of the game, so there was no way to see what was in the .bin files, and even when it became available it is a DOS program not easily understood by many users, especially the younger ones.
3. No tool was provided to allow users to see the contents of the texture files and thus modify them.

I actually like the use of .xml files rather than the unicode files used in MSTS. They are easy to edit with any text editor, and you do not get the problem of nested brackets being missing. As long as you have an opening and closing tag, most things do work.

Some people have suggested that 'someone' should write a utility which would make it easy to change things like brake settings and other items like in the Engine/Wagon file editor in Route_Riter. This would be a good idea, but I am getting too old for this and do not wish to start a new project all over again. The entries in many of the files are not documented so I hope one of the younger group members will take this on.

Personally I have the feeling that MSTS2 will be even more complicated, so those thinking it will be better than RS might have to think again. I was looking at a demo recently and the ground texture seems to be the same small tiles as in MSTS, no where near as good as the fields etc which RS is capable of.

mikesimpson wrote:Some people have suggested that 'someone' should write a utility which would make it easy to change things like brake settings and other items like in the Engine/Wagon file editor in Route_Riter. This would be a good idea, but I am getting too old for this and do not wish to start a new project all over again. The entries in many of the files are not documented so I hope one of the younger group members will take this on.

Well I think you have already worked wonders for MSTS Mike with Route_Riter so for people to expect you to repeat that for KRS is a bit rich in my opinion. Having donated a couple of times as the capabilities of Route_Riter expanded I fully appreciate your efforts. I hope the other members of this forum do so as well.

As for the future - it is good to see XML being used but unless people step up to the plate and make a difference then things will not improve. There are plenty of nay-sayers on this and other forums who have a lot to say but not much action resulting from their words. Would MSTS still be a major force after all these years if developers had not generated programs such as Route-Riter, Conbuilder, Trainstore, Activity-Analyser ? I think not. Those who can do - those who can't just sit and whinge on internet forums.

mikesimpson wrote:Kuju only intended this to be a game and that no one was supposed to make any changes at all to the underlying files.

This can be seen by:-
1. The use of hex for filenames in the Routes and Scenarios making it next to impossible for users to work out what was stored and where.
2. Serz.exe was not even supplied with the early copies of the game, so there was no way to see what was in the .bin files, and even when it became available it is a DOS program not easily understood by many users, especially the younger ones.
3. No tool was provided to allow users to see the contents of the texture files and thus modify them.

Hi Mike,

Speaking on behalf of RSDL I feel I must correct you on the above comments. Rail Simulator was and has always been designed to be extensible by the end user. It is fully recognised that the past success of MSTS was near on entirely down to the ability for the end user to develop their own content.

1. The use of HEX values for routes and scenarios is evidence only of the intention that users are not meant to delve into folder structures and file names when developing content. It has always been the intention that players would use provided tools to access content they wished to share. Thus no means was intentionally provided to manually share content.
2. The Serz.exe application was never intended to be shipped with the simulation. Again, it has always been the intention that this forms part of the tool suite available for free download for those users wishing to get involved with developing additional content.
3. There is purposefully no tools provided to reverse engineer default content. This is standard games development practice. Any such ability would indicate that the developers are able to fully support end users modifying functional software, and thus if the end user damages the functionality, the developer fully allowing them to, would be responsible for correcting the end users efforts. A situation that near on no developer in the games industry is capable of undertaking.

The failure comes in that the intended tool -The packager & manager - is not upto the standard we would like, and thus some users are having difficulty. However with the excellent support and feedback of the online community, and our direct communication with many users, we are able to mold and shape the next version of the Packager & Manager to cater far more accurately for the users needs.

Hi James Petts

Another entertaining thread from you.

A feeling of deja vu on more than a few occasions but still entertaining.

Thanks.

I would have thought this should be in the Scenarios forum considering that this thread is called. Standard Timetabled and Freeroam Scenarios.

As a codicil to all of this, the "About Rail Simulator" section on the website appears to have been changed. The section on signalling now reads:

"Localised Signalling Systems
No railway would be complete without accurate signalling allowing it to operate. Implemented into Rail Simulator is an extremely flexible signalling system using LUA Scripts. Using this system each route has localised signal systems with real world functionality."

References to "completely accurate" and "all the bells and whistles" have been deleted.