Yet another intractible pathing problem

[jamespetts]

I have been trying to work on a two and a half hour timetabled scenario using the Paddington to Oxford route. I started by setting up all the Great Western express trains, firstly those going via Swindon (Swansea, Bristol Temple Meads and Weston-Super-Mare), and then those going via Westbury (Plymouth, Penzance and Exeter St. David's). All was going well when I set up the trains using the Swindon portal, but when I added all the trains to the Baisingstoke portal, and checked the drivers list, I found that a large number of the trains would stick on "pending" indefinitely. When I tried to run the scenario, it would hang at the loading screen and never load. It does the same thing when I load it in "edit" mode. The only way that I can get into it is to load another scenario in "edit" mode and then click on the scenario marker, whereupon it will then load this scenario in edit mode.

It seems that every time that I try to create a scenario, some new and serious error not only prevents me from going on, but destroys all or most of the work that I have already done. The degree of instability in Rail Simulator is wholly unacceptable for any commercial product.

[phat2003uk]

James

I can understand your annoyance with the whole programme, it's get me as well after spending hours on a scenario and then for it to mess up. Firstly though, I never use portals to send stuff out of as in my experience, this causes more problems than it fixes so try and keep to placing trains on the rails if possible. Also, two and a half hours really is a bit too optimistic at the moment for the volume of traffic that would be encountered in that time so maybe if possible split it into two parts.

I know it's infuriating having to work around things which should work in the first place but unfortunately that's the state of play at the moment.

[jamespetts]

James

I can understand your annoyance with the whole programme, it's get me as well after spending hours on a scenario and then for it to mess up. Firstly though, I never use portals to send stuff out of as in my experience, this causes more problems than it fixes so try and keep to placing trains on the rails if possible. Also, two and a half hours really is a bit too optimistic at the moment for the volume of traffic that would be encountered in that time so maybe if possible split it into two parts.

I know it's infuriating having to work around things which should work in the first place but unfortunately that's the state of play at the moment.

Two and a half hours is not in the least unreasonable - Rail3d, a far simpler programme, is capable of fully realistic timetables of 24 hours. One cannot avoid using portals in a situation where multiple trains must come from, for example, Swindon at different times: there is nowhere on the tracks to put them all.

The reality is that this software is fundamentally broken. You write that this is the state of play "at the moment": in the months on end that have gone by since release, and the two upgrades, not one iota of progress has been made on this issue. What chance of progress within any meaningful timeframe is there in those circumstances?

[RiscaStation]

James

I can understand your annoyance with the whole programme, it's get me as well after spending hours on a scenario and then for it to mess up. Firstly though, I never use portals to send stuff out of as in my experience, this causes more problems than it fixes so try and keep to placing trains on the rails if possible. Also, two and a half hours really is a bit too optimistic at the moment for the volume of traffic that would be encountered in that time so maybe if possible split it into two parts.

I know it's infuriating having to work around things which should work in the first place but unfortunately that's the state of play at the moment.

Two and a half hours is not in the least unreasonable - Rail3d, a far simpler programme, is capable of fully realistic timetables of 24 hours. One cannot avoid using portals in a situation where multiple trains must come from, for example, Swindon at different times: there is nowhere on the tracks to put them all.

The reality is that this software is fundamentally broken. You write that this is the state of play "at the moment": in the months on end that have gone by since release, and the two upgrades, not one iota of progress has been made on this issue. What chance of progress within any meaningful timeframe is there in those circumstances?

Hi

This just raises all the problems once again associated with what I call a Stocking filler of a game.
Poorly thought out from the beginning, incomplete with an unstable Foundation. I must admit the program Trainz has more advanced features going for it even though its graphics let it down a bit. Still there are a lot of people who are happy to put up with Rail Simulator and its short comings. They would have to do a lot more to have my 100% interest for the moment I am just observing.

Regards
Mike

[jamespetts]

For an analysis of what appears to be behind the problem, see here.

[tads1970]

Reading through James's post,this is probably the most important feature (for me)that doesn't work well.

Out of interest on a 15 mile section of a layout in Trainz,8 AI consists,over 40 wagons along the route using couple to nearest command and check consist/trackmark ect a session that lasts for approx 60 mins with interaction between my loco and a AI loco that comes after Ive uncoupled my loco and moved off onto the next job in the next siding,the AI loco enters the sidings,and couples up to the train ive just dropped off,waits for an express passenger to clear,then the signals are cleared for the AI to proceed,then my train is cleared after that,the AI can tell if the track ahead is occupied,as I watched most of the AI do there job,jumping from train to train,thank god Auran made it pretty simple,going to have another play around with more complex AI operations at the weekend,enjoyed every minute of it watching the AI do what there supposed to do.

I might even post a video on Youtube if i have time.

[AndiS]

While I wanted to have AI working satisfactory long ago, I decided for myself to just give it a rest until they release a fix of the AI. We all know the AI is inferior by far to any other product. We know that RSDL are planning to fix it. We know that the fix is not available yet. Therefore, in my view there are two phases of useful activity.

a) While waiting for the fix (i.e., Mk3, hopefully, appearing in 3-6 months, probably) the following can be investigated:
- Some people manage to arrange for trains taking over other trains. What are the precise conditions for it to work.
- Some problems can be associated with specifics of the default content. So one could first recreate the essentials of the situation on a plain board and see if it works there. And if it does, try to find the quirk in the default route.

In doing so, just put a rake of sidings wherever you would want to use a portal. I was never angry about them because I read about their problems before I first came to use one. This method of stuffing trains in that then vanish and become inaccessible to changes does not sound too attractive to me anyway, even if portals would work as expected.

b) Once the AI is declared fixed, let's give it a complete test. And not just two and a half hours. I have a long list of interesting train operations, but I do not even start building the route to try them before I read plausible reports that the AI is fixed.

Btw., I fully know how frustrating it is to wait so long. The only thing that helps is doing something else meanwhile (taking photos, reading books, taking walks, in my case).

[CaptScarlet]

Reading through James's post,this is probably the most important feature (for me)that doesn't work well.

Out of interest on a 15 mile section of a layout in Trainz,8 AI consists,over 40 wagons along the route using couple to nearest command and check consist/trackmark ect a session that lasts for approx 60 mins with interaction between my loco and a AI loco that comes after Ive uncoupled my loco and moved off onto the next job in the next siding,the AI loco enters the sidings,and couples up to the train ive just dropped off,waits for an express passenger to clear,then the signals are cleared for the AI to proceed,then my train is cleared after that,the AI can tell if the track ahead is occupied,as I watched most of the AI do there job,jumping from train to train,thank god Auran made it pretty simple,going to have another play around with more complex AI operations at the weekend,enjoyed every minute of it watching the AI do what there supposed to do.

I might even post a video on Youtube if i have time.

That is all true and it can be fun watching the AI trains going about there business but the one problem I saw in Trainz was that unless one sets up pre defined paths with a 3rd party rule ( which can be complicated ) the player train is on its own in that no pathing is done for it ( or for that matter any AI train the player takes over ). Also the player train in a sense plays second fiddle to the AI ( unless the user has set up paths for it ) as the AI will control the switches and at times throw a switch against the player train as the AI sets it path from switch to switch and locks them. The way around this is as I said either creating pre defined path with a rule or using the scenario creation system ( SCS ) which can also be complicated to use for some.

Can Trainz do more than RS where AI is concerned - Yes but it was only available from the third version and it still has a lot of idiosyncrasies that need to be worked around.

John

PS I think it's fair to say that before RSDL are able to enhance what the AI can do, the dispatcher need to be working "correctly" so that it can handle any extra functionality.

[Oldpufferspotter]

Hi all,
Can I just ask, how do you get trains to appear out of a portal when you haven't sent them into that portal in the first place during that particular scenario?
I have sent rains into a portal and had them almost immediately reappear again, but I want to have a few in a portal ready to come out at appropriate times.
regards Ted.

[CaptScarlet]

Hi all,
Can I just ask, how do you get trains to appear out of a portal when you haven't sent them into that portal in the first place during that particular scenario?
I have sent rains into a portal and had them almost immediately reappear again, but I want to have a few in a portal ready to come out at appropriate times.
regards Ted.

Ted, You have to create a consist in front of the portal ( just like any AI train ) and then double click the portal's central post and it will open a properties window. The you click on "add" and then click on the consist. Then the consist is added to the portal and the train should be expelled based on the time you have set for that train to start.

John

[boleyd]

The pathing illustration certainly seems to doom any chance I may have of making a significant amount of yard activity. I wanted shunters to run around the yard breaking down incoming trains, loading cars and making up new trains for use on a timetable/waybill. The program's inability to have AI assets couple/decouple seems to be a major roadblock to that set of objectives. I have used the forums to lobby for AI coupling/decoupling to no avail. Now the pathing routine's problems in extensive scenarios would prevent any large scale yard activity. Too bad since the graphics are great but......

I was ready to buy the RSDL shunter but even semi-static (fixed) consists running around the yard plus trains coming and going would probably "blow a fuse". :2gunfire:

[tads1970]

Hi John,your response to my post is spot on,although complicated at first,second nature now.The ability to name junctons and signals and use these names in pathing a train,incorperate into that 3rd party rules,however complicated,makes one hell of a powerful dispatcher/signalman,the more variables available for pathing a train,be it human or AI,gives more flexibility to the user,if your limited to only a handfull of commands,and restrictions on what track it can travel on (freight or passenger)that surely has limiting factors in what it can do.

Like Boleyd states,I like seeing lots of AI,more so in yards ect,breaking trains up and shunting into other sidings,without AI traffic,things start to become boring and detracts from the initial disappointment.How high on the list does RSDL put AI operations?clearly they have there own agenda to work to,they might not think that is important enough to invest time and money.I was rather surprised to see triple screens given support given the amount of people who actually have this type of setup,instead of addressing the more serious issues.It's now coming up to one year since RS was released,and is still dogged with serious operational issues.It's all good and well driving from point A-B,with a few AI trains in between,but for the more serious operations,it's lagging far behind other titles that were made some years ago.

[phat2003uk]

James

I can understand your annoyance with the whole programme, it's get me as well after spending hours on a scenario and then for it to mess up. Firstly though, I never use portals to send stuff out of as in my experience, this causes more problems than it fixes so try and keep to placing trains on the rails if possible. Also, two and a half hours really is a bit too optimistic at the moment for the volume of traffic that would be encountered in that time so maybe if possible split it into two parts.

I know it's infuriating having to work around things which should work in the first place but unfortunately that's the state of play at the moment.

Two and a half hours is not in the least unreasonable - Rail3d, a far simpler programme, is capable of fully realistic timetables of 24 hours. One cannot avoid using portals in a situation where multiple trains must come from, for example, Swindon at different times: there is nowhere on the tracks to put them all.

The reality is that this software is fundamentally broken. You write that this is the state of play "at the moment": in the months on end that have gone by since release, and the two upgrades, not one iota of progress has been made on this issue. What chance of progress within any meaningful timeframe is there in those circumstances?

Yes I know that two and a half hours is not unreasonable, it is unreasonable for a scenario on the Paddington - Oxford route due to Rail Simulator. You can keep trying but I'm just saying that you maybe wasting your time.

[cwgaskell]

Hi,

If you run the LogMate version of RS with the "Pathing" option in the command line and try and edit the scenario that never loaded, I would guess that you will see the Dispatcher looping endlessly in the log.

I got this problem a while back, and can still be recreated even after the Mk2 update.

The initial flipant reaction from RS was that RS never went into and "endless loop".
They never came back to me to say they were taking the problem seriously or not, although it is easy to recreate.
My scenario just had two AI trains, with both trying to exit the same portal.

Don't know the cause, but all I can do is to hope that RS take this problem seriously, and fix the Dispatcher/Signalling code.
If they don't, all I can hope for is that MSTS 2 arrives early, and it is at least as good as RS for creating custom routes, etc.

All the best

Colin

[Retro]

Hi,
I have had problems with Portals in the fact that the information you put in such as miles to station and wait time seems to make no difference. As Ted points out the train just seems to go in and come out almost Immediately. On trying again since MK2 I just get the !!!! when I click on the portal for a train to enter it with a stop command.
I must be doing something wrong. This is a problem when trying to check the Portals on my Route.
Regards James.