Atomic Systems

sniper297 wrote:How can something have run its course and be heading in an unpleasant direction at the same time?

Anyway, the whole issue of freeware versus conditionware is one that will never be resolved. My own position, if I think something I make is worth protecting, I'll be selling it rather than giving it away. Haven't seen any of the EULAs in question, but if someone did copyright and say anything to the effect of "must ask permission before redistributing", then uploading it to another website without asking IS wrong. However, with freeware, unless it specifically SAYS you can't there's nothing illegal about uploading wherever you want. That goes for all of my MSTS and Railsim stuff, there's no copyright or distribution restrictions on it, therefore upload it to every website from Alaska to Zimbawe for all of me.

Actually i said "the thread was heading in an unpleasant direction,and that the disscusion had run its course"(imho)sorry if you misunderstood
But as the subject has obviously not run its course,just a word of caution,
If you have Re skinned loco,s for RS "as i have" before talking about copyright, answer this:did you obtain permission from the operating company to reproduce there branding i know i didnt!
so i am probably in violation of copyright.
but i agree webmasters should certainly ask first before uploading files.
with kind regards
kevin

eloc13 wrote:

rich0984 wrote:The 165 is still on there just with a link to uktrainsim.com instead of a direct download, you can ask permission from me now if you want for the HST reskin?

From who is the download then? I have asked two times for permission for three downloads, including the class 165, and i have still no reaction.....

Eloc13

The 165 is by me and you have never asked for or been granted permission to host it.

If you ask an author for permission and they say no or they do not respond then YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? It is up to authors and creators to decide where and how their content is made available, it is NOT up to you.

JB

The UK Government has a very comprehensive Intellectual Property website.

The following links, to the Intellectual Property website, cover most of the points that have been made in this thread...
What is Copyright?
Automatic protection
Copyright protection abroad
Intellectual property crime
What is counterfeiting and piracy?

Uploading files to a website for download, without the author's permission, IS breaking copyright and is ILLEGAL!
Reporting intellectual property crime
Authors can seek injunctions, and damages, through the courts from anyone who infringes their copyright.

This thread is now technically breaking UKTS Forum guidelines...

9) Offering to send or requesting that others send you copies of software or commercial add-ons, or the discussion of any form of law breaking activities is not permitted.

There are also guidelines for resolving disputes involving copyright

Hot tempers can cause bad language and flare a bad situation in to a horrible one. Stay away from the forums until the matter is resolved. If you are able to simply stay away from the topic and/or side snipes about it in other topics then feel free to continue posting on other topics, if you do not feel you are able to do this then you are simply best off not posting.

The dispute should not be raised on the forums under any circumstances. There is no need to publicise the issue at all, it just makes everyone look bad seeing people fight on the forums - do not assume that because something is obvious to you that you will have 100% support, there will always be people that see it a different way.

I suggest that anyone who has files hosted elsewhere, without their permission, read through those guidelines and follow the advice there, as well as on the government website.

growler37 wrote:<snip>
If you have Re skinned loco,s for RS "as i have" before talking about copyright, answer this:did you obtain permission from the operating company to reproduce there branding i know i didnt!
so i am probably in violation of copyright.
<snip>

It's probably a breach of Trade Mark legislation, rather than copyright!

Just a suggestion, those of you who want to keep your stuff under control - copyright it. To my way of thinking if you don't put a copyright on it it's natural to assume it's unrestricted. I downloaded JiveBunny's UKTS_17956_IC_Exec.zip to see exactly what his EULA or copyright DID say, and exactly what part of it the Dutchman violated. Somebody want to show me where it says I'm prohibited from uploading this file anywhere I want?

You might consider reading the info that dorlan linked to above. It says it all.

Executive summary for the very hasty ones:

There is no official registration system for copyright in the United Kingdom (UK) and most other parts of the world. ...
So long as you have created a work that qualifies for copyright protection, ... you will have copyright protection without having to do anything to establish this.

All western European countries, the United States of America (USA) and Russia belong to the Berne Convention. Under this agreement, you do not have to mark your work in any way for automatic protection to apply. However, it is sensible to mark your work in this respect.

So, just like JB said: By default, all the rights are with the authors, none are with other people. You can actively change that, but if no agreement is in place, the default is in place. Simple logic, isn't it?

That Government legislation is all well and good but i can hardly see the police coming round with blues and twos flashing if someone uploads a few RS files to a 3rd party website can you? Its hardly worth the webpage its writen on. In this situation its not really effective legislation is it? If you expect people to follow it then i think you are in for a nasty shock or a rude awakening, you shouldnt expect this to be adhered to whether it says there or not... Its no surprised that people will upload illegally or share your work and to think otherwise is frankly quite nieve about it. I am not condoning people hosting files without permission but this is the internet, its always happened it always will. Again, i think the authors even though they may have the moral high ground perhaps need to step down from there pedistool a bit.... there a difference between the rules and the expectation they will be followed in circumstances like this and thats one you have to expect.

Again, i reiterate, what is wrong with a few reskins being hosted else where? is it really worth 5 pages and 1700 views?

You are certainly right that there is a lot of anarchy on the net. But

a) If authors would give in to the anarchy and follow the suggestions not to publish anything on the net, this would take away a lot of nice models from the legal users.

b) At least in EU (and the US), the law is in the process of striking back. No there are no police raids (at least not for train simulation models), but in Germany there are lawyers sending out letters in which they demand some fee otherwise they would start an expensive lay suit, just as soon as someone dislikes some post in some forum. I don't know about the Netherlands, but if kujurailsimulator.nl would be situated in Austria or Germany, then the owners would be in for a nasty fee for not giving the full contact data on their site, with real name and real address of site owner. Of course, you may dislike such regulations, but this is the way things are developing currently, so the claim that all the web is anarchy will soon refer to non-Western countries only.

AndiS wrote: a) If authors would give in to the anarchy and follow the suggestions not to publish anything on the net, this would take away a lot of nice models from the legal users.

Sadly, I've been thinking along similar lines, myself.


The way I see it is that if I have spent many, many hours of my own time making a model for people to download, then I have the right to choose where I want it available from. Nobody else has that right. If I choose to support this site, then it is my decision and my decision only.

If people cannot exercise a small amount of patience to wait for a free download from this site then I feel a little sorry for them. I can assure them that they will certainly have to wait a lot less then the time it took me to create the model in the first palce.

At the end of the day, uploading to another site without permission is a form of piracy. Whether the original upload was free is totally immaterial. Seems there are quite a few who just can't seem to grasp that idea.

Kevin

kevmt wrote:

AndiS wrote: a) If authors would give in to the anarchy and follow the suggestions not to publish anything on the net, this would take away a lot of nice models from the legal users.

Sadly, I've been thinking along similar lines, myself.

I can only hope that the way forward is not to withdraw or hold back further models, but to start an initiative like the one concerning ebay. It should not be done in this thread, though.

Basically, people should share information on available models anyway. Maybe we could establish a rule that if you find some UKTS content somewhere, you PM the author. Then we would need a thread where authors post to opt out of such information. Or we have an opt-in thread where authors state that their content is not legally distributed elsewhere, and only they get PMed if someone sees something.

I am sure that the experiences with the anti-ebay campaign are mixed, but I am also sure that just asking nasty questions and complaining to the providers will reduce the problem. Among the grateful downloaders there should be enough people who volunteer to remind others about the law, so that the faith of authors in a somewhat controlled and reliable environment is re-established.

kevmt wrote:Might be wortth reading the article on copywrite thats been on ukts for a number of years. Although, it mentions MSTS the same would apply to any sim:-

http://www.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?fo ... =copyright&

kevin

Thanks for the link Kevin this clarifies the situation in a simple way that even I can understand.
Regards James.

kevmt wrote: The way I see it is that if I have spent many, many hours of my own time making a model for people to download, then I have the right to choose where I want it available from. Nobody else has that right. If I choose to support this site, then it is my decision and my decision only.

Kevin

Hear, hear.

As I have always maintained, freeware does not = free for all.

One of the reasons why in general terms I have always insisted my routes go out on CD, though I'm not naive enough to think for a moment that would necessarily prevent this type of thing.

Assuming this nl site is not on a home server, maybe one option for those who feel strongly is to identify then contact the hosting company to complain about files being uploaded without permission. At some point it must interface with the net via an ISP so scope there to submit a complaint, perhaps?

Now it may be that there is scope in time for Matt to review the business model of UKTS but the fact is the site (together with T-S.com) does a sterling, quality and above all reliable job of supporting the hobby. Not saying kuju...nl does as I haven't visited the site in question, but my experience is that so called "free" sites soon run into trouble, unless they start subsidising the cost with a load of porno/gambling etc. pop ups.

EIrmer wrote:Hi JB,
But maybe Atomic Systems has to rethink their policy of the queued and slow downloads. There are many users who are really glad if they get an uncomplicated download possibility. And they don't use the downloads so often that a premium membership is an option for them.

This is nothing to do with UKTrainSim though. This is to do with uploaders and where they upload.

When I developed for MSTS, I mirrored ALL my uploads on my own personal site for those with non-premium and it turned out to be very successful indeed. But users these days seem to ONLY upload to here, which isn't UKTS' fault. I don't understand why users who make things cannot upload here AND to someone elses site - I am sure there are many who would offer a bit of free hosting, myself included. As that is what annoys me, I am number 50 of 55 in the queue to download a file that is perhaps only 500Kb small - puts me off downloading.

Again, I used to be premium but after years of not having MSTS installed and Rail Simulator not having enough quality downloads, then I simply didnt renew nd probably wont until there is something i really want desperate.

I do not mean to attack individuals here, but a good example is MakingTracks. A nice company that has grown up and has a real community feel to it. But their downloads are hosted here, which means a user who does not know about UKTS has to come here, then have to register an account, then have to wait in a queue to download. Not sure of any other company that does this.

Easilyconfused wrote:

shortbart wrote:So yes, give your content to other websites, espically foreigns one, and give the permisson just to a few of them, not too many, so that you have control about your content. And if you are release a new version, so we will delete the old one and host the new one, and you can control the versions...

It is not really your place to tell authors what to do and where to upload their stuff.

No but he has the right to say what he thinks surely? I agree, it could have been phrased differently, but English might not be his native tongue.

Easilyconfused wrote:I will be taking a cursory look at that site to make sure my meagre uploads are not offered there - all my uploads are on UKTS only by my choice.

That's what this is all about, people exclusivly uploading here. I am all for UKTS having exclusive content to encourage more people to come here, but like I said, if you want a file that is under 1Mb, then it is silly to wait a long time for it.

Easilyconfused wrote:I upload stuff here because I have had a ton of help from members and I want to support the site.

Not because you're a moderator huh? Are you saying because other members don't upload their files here (or do AND elsewhere), that they do not support the site? But then what about people like me, who did pay subscription and then due to life commitments, didn't. I sitll support the site, which is why I still am here :S

Easilyconfused wrote:. . .so what is wrong with the subscriptions to sites or is it more a case of wanting something for nothing ?

Ahh, like Hotmail right? They have a free service, or an enhanced service for £19.99. But the majority of people choose the free service - all of those want something for nothing? If it is free, people will take it - lesson number one in being a human

Easilyconfused wrote:Do I care if my content ends up on Warez sites ? Not really otherwise I would not have uploaded it. If you are stupid and ignorant enough to source content via that route then sooner or later your PC will get toasted by some malware and to be very blunt - serves you right.

Who said anything about warez sites? What if your content was uploaded to a non-warez site, would you be happy to leave it there?

dorlan wrote:The UK Government has a very comprehensive Intellectual Property website.

Didn't read the site as I have little care for copyright when it comes to a simple train simulator model. If it's a whole operating system, it's another matter. But then to throw a spanner in the works, what happens if the site is hosted elsewhere, not in the UK? What happens if the site is managed in the UK but not hosted here, or even hosted and managed abroad? OR maybe hosted here but not managed here in the UK? Too complicated to work out for me.

So long as someone isn't making money off of anything I made and my name/website is kept with it, I don't really mind if people host it on their site. I have said it times int he past and will say it again, Microsoft don't mind people pirating their operating system as much as most people think because it gets the name MICROSOFT out there, people using their products. They make it hard to keep using a pirated version (such as WGA et al), but ultimatly, if they wanted to stop people using a pirate version all together, they could, easily.

petermakosch wrote:<snip>

dorlan wrote:The UK Government has a very comprehensive Intellectual Property website.

Didn't read the site as I have little care for copyright when it comes to a simple train simulator model. If it's a whole operating system, it's another matter.

It doesn't matter which it is, both are covered by copyright laws! I suggest you read the links I provided. They answer your following points!

petermakosch wrote: But then to throw a spanner in the works, what happens if the site is hosted elsewhere, not in the UK? What happens if the site is managed in the UK but not hosted here, or even hosted and managed abroad? OR maybe hosted here but not managed here in the UK? Too complicated to work out for me.

To put it simply, they are still protected by copyright.

petermakosch wrote:So long as someone isn't making money off of anything I made and my name/website is kept with it, I don't really mind if people host it on their site. <snip>

That is your choice, others have the right to choose differently!

petermakosch wrote:

Easilyconfused wrote:I upload stuff here because I have had a ton of help from members and I want to support the site.

Not because you're a moderator huh? Are you saying because other members don't upload their files here (or do AND elsewhere), that they do not support the site? But then what about people like me, who did pay subscription and then due to life commitments, didn't. I sitll support the site, which is why I still am here :S

Well you can twist and spin it that way if you like. I think all but 1 of my uploads were prior to being invited to be a moderator. Due to spending a good chunk of most evenings viewing the forums as a moderator and real life pressures as well I have several unfinished activities for the Bristol - Swansea route needing just that last 15% of effort to get them uploaded.

petermakosch wrote:

Easilyconfused wrote:Do I care if my content ends up on Warez sites ? Not really otherwise I would not have uploaded it. If you are stupid and ignorant enough to source content via that route then sooner or later your PC will get toasted by some malware and to be very blunt - serves you right.

Who said anything about warez sites? What if your content was uploaded to a non-warez site, would you be happy to leave it there?

Well actually it was brought up a couple of posts before mine

GerJan1 wrote:2. Nothing against UTrainSim, Train-Sim.com, The-Train.de or other great site’s but mostly the have there download restrictions. Not every rail simmer can afford a paying account at these site’s so then you will find fast your downloads back in the illegal circuit (warez or others) without permission.

To which I was responding. I don't have time to chase down sites that have my stuff on them but equally I don't have time to deal with some incredibly abusive emails that come in because the required stock for my activities is listed as UKTS fileids or comes off UKTS CDs - those emails go straight in the bin.

We do know about the moderator avatar bug but that is another thing on the list of things to fix when Matt gets time. In the meantime when we spot the rogue avatars we edit the post silently to get rid of them. It is caused by quoting a moderator message with the avatar tags in it as I am sue you will have spotted.

Tell you what Peter - if you want to host my tiny activity files then feel free - but all the required stock is either on UKTS CDs or listed in the readme files with the UKTS fileids. If I update any of them I'll try to remember to tell you.