Atomic Systems

RSAdam wrote: There are loads of RailSim sites out there just downloading and uploading everything they find.

Such is the reality of life. Laws and norms are only successful when the vast majority of society adheres to them. There will never be enough "enforcement" resources to handle but a few "violators". The solution is either not to create the illusion of control (unenforceable "agreements"), don't publish to the "public domain" or spend enormous resources on copy protection which eventually will be cracked. Each person/company must make their own choice. That's just how it is.

I'm not butting in to this but ''eloc13'' is being really harsh on JB in the grammer side of things, really just turn it down a notch...

Hi
Maybe the mods,should consider locking this topic,seems to be heading in a very unpleasant direction!
Also it seems to have run its course anyway.
kevin

Hello everyone,

I don't like this topic anymore. Please stop to saddle me everything.

I will happily apologise if you can prove that you obtained permission to host all of the content on your website

I don't give you. I am the only one who knows the facts about the downloads on http://www.kujurailsimulator.nl and I have permission for all the downloads which stands at the moment on http://www.kujurailsimulator.nl. If you believe or not, that's your own problem, but I know, that I have permission.

I think the fact that you have deleted my account at kujurailsimulator.nl speaks for itself.

Well, i can't talk about this, because i don't have deleted your account. That's the only thing I know. I guess you will don't believe me, but that's not my problem, that's yours......

All of the content on UKTS is available for free, therefore it is not payware. However I am slightly concerned that you think it is ok to steal payware and host it on your own website.

What do you want to say? I don't steel anything. You say by yourself that everything on uktrainsim is freeware
I am gonna read this topic further, but i am not gonna say anything. This is unfair, and i don't like this anymore. STOP IT NOW, TO PUT THE BLAME ON ME, AND TO SADDLE ME WITH STEALING ''FREEWARE''

And now, it's a lesson for me, because i am young, and ''new'' in this world. If I have seen now, this isn't a fair ''world'', because some men think that they can talk about everything, but this isn't true.
Eloc13 - KRSTeam the Netherlands

Do you not think there are more important issues, imagine if your content was beeing plagorised and edited/clamed as not your own? That is something to get worried about! This IMHO is not!

The whole point of developing a "community" and getting users to create content/get involved is sharing and development and by restricting access to the materials and content already being created you are as a result starving this vital ellement of developing a community for this game. You may say that, yes this Didnt starve MSTS but MSTS didnt really have much competition did it? and by its nature is a simulation which would attract the type of person who could afford this access, but with RS we start again, we attract new people, potentially a different type of fanbase and its not really a method of sharing that attracts or appeals to new fans. If you are a new consumer who has just picked RS up off the shelf and searching the net for new content, then your not going to pay just to "test the waters" are you? you move on and try something else, perhaps a flight sim or another game where the access to content is more readily avalable. Trying to restrict it to this smaks of country club or private members club snobbery to me, its freeware, you put it out there as such you have to accept the consiquences and live by your deision.

I agree that official content should only be uploaded/shared on 3rd party websites with the permision of the developing company but not the rest. How can you have such a big argument about what is freeware which you expose to this kind of environment by first A) making it as freeware and B.) publishing it as such. If you think you have problems with people hosting your content on other sites (personally if it was mine, i would be flattered) Just think of the reaction if someone actually did something like rip off, plagorise or steel your work. You know, something actually worthy of this comotion. Infact, I have had such problems myself with the linked modelhere and having someone plagorise your 10s of man hours of work, research and testing is something worth worrying about, but other hosting your files? come on people.. its a minor issue

Therefore I understand this POV very well and I understand that one may want to support this site, but i feel the argument for giving access to all/to those that can't afford a premimum sub is one of greater importance/value to the comunity. When i got involved in this site at the age of 16/17 in 2001 I couldnt afford a premium sub and as such was penalised and Its perfectly reasonable and feasable arangement to allow these people who maybe are not as fortunate as you, or I to have access to this freeware through other 3rd party sites. Obviously those sites would not have the depth of content, the reliability, the databases and the ease or convinience of a site such as UKTS which is where its USP lies anyway... and hosting these files on other sites is therefore not going to effect its subscription levels, its content or its revinue, its just going to ease server traffic for those who wouldnt subscribe to the website anyway. And Finally its clear that UKTS has a strong and loyal fanbase as evidance in this thread, i dont think supporting this site is a really valid argument, its just a facade for a method of control over your own "freeware" which knowingly and willingly once released you do not really have

edit: I should just add that i do agree that it should always remain at the authors discretion whether they want it hosted elsewhere or not but perhaps there does need to be a bit of give and take here, the authors need to lighten up a bit and the webmasters need to respect there wishes more. However, having said that, the authors should not expect there word or wished to be accepted as a norm, because the nature of freeware is not as such and once public domain you can't excersise any effective control over what people do with your content and therefore should expect these things to happen.... perhaps expecting and allowing helps both the comunity and avoids these arguments. But at the same time, again, the webmasters need to show a little manor, respect and curtocy when hosting and asking to host others files

eloc13 wrote:I have permission for all the downloads which stands at the moment on http://www.kujurailsimulator.nl.

That statement is completely wrong, some of jb's content is still on there, and you never seeked permission to upload my content, like I said before it is not hard to ask.

How can something have run its course and be heading in an unpleasant direction at the same time?

Anyway, the whole issue of freeware versus conditionware is one that will never be resolved. My own position, if I think something I make is worth protecting, I'll be selling it rather than giving it away. Haven't seen any of the EULAs in question, but if someone did copyright and say anything to the effect of "must ask permission before redistributing", then uploading it to another website without asking IS wrong. However, with freeware, unless it specifically SAYS you can't there's nothing illegal about uploading wherever you want. That goes for all of my MSTS and Railsim stuff, there's no copyright or distribution restrictions on it, therefore upload it to every website from Alaska to Zimbawe for all of me.

rich0984 wrote:

eloc13 wrote:I have permission for all the downloads which stands at the moment on http://www.kujurailsimulator.nl.

That statement is completely wrong, some of jb's content is still on there, and you never seeked permission to upload my content, like I said before it is not hard to ask.

jb's? Who is that? Jivebunny? He has told which downloads are from him, and they are removed. So i like to know, which downloads you mean.
And nope, t isn't hard to ask, we are doing this at the moment, by all new downloads!
Eloc13

The 165 is still on there just with a link to uktrainsim.com instead of a direct download, you can ask permission from me now if you want for the HST reskin?

rich0984 wrote:The 165 is still on there just with a link to uktrainsim.com instead of a direct download, you can ask permission from me now if you want for the HST reskin?

A link to UKTrainSim is hardly unreasonable!

The point is: freeware is not public domain.

If you put something in the public domain, everyone can do everything with it, legally. Not even the Free Software Foundation endorses this, but instead works out conditions for the distribution and publication of the concerned works. So not even FSF software or Linux is public domain.

Most, if not all items in the UKTS file library, and most other file libraries, are copy-protected works offered for free (+/- some fee you pay to your ISP +/- some fee you pay for the server, the point is: the author gets nothing). Therefore, doing anything without permission from that author is illegal. For fact, it is difficult to trace all the copyright (and other law) violations on the net, but, as I said before, if you live in EU or US, you should take care about the real life consequences of things easily done in "cyberspace".

I find it sad, that people measure the value of something, and the rights of the contributor, by the price tag. If the price is (near) zero, the author should shut up and the receiver has all rights, because it is a worthless item anyway, in that it cost nothing. How wrong! Many things on the net, not only train models, are precious gifts, and messing around with them is really bad.

At the same time, I certainly would welcome a voluntary movement towards honest public domain content (or copy-left or whatever). Clearly, it brings the community forward. However, it is the right of every person, to do as he pleases, as long as it is legal, so if someone produces things for free for which he retains the rights, nice to receive these gifts. I cannot build on them, or develop them further, but I can use and enjoy them, which really is not bad either.

phat2003uk wrote:

rich0984 wrote:The 165 is still on there just with a link to uktrainsim.com instead of a direct download, you can ask permission from me now if you want for the HST reskin?

A link to UKTrainSim is hardly unreasonable!

Yes i know, just wanted to make sure because it was said that all JB's content had been removed and the rest has been completely removed.

rich0984 wrote:The 165 is still on there just with a link to uktrainsim.com instead of a direct download, you can ask permission from me now if you want for the HST reskin?

From who is the download then? I have asked two times for permission for three downloads, including the class 165, and i have still no reaction.....

A link to UKTrainSim is hardly unreasonable!

Why??!! When you don't want to see such a link, just say on the forum!!
Eloc13

Young!?!, I'm only 13 and Ive got the common sense to ask before take, and what is 'saddle' ?

Might be wortth reading the article on copywrite thats been on ukts for a number of years. Although, it mentions MSTS the same would apply to any sim:-

http://www.uktrainsim.com/index2.php?fo ... =copyright&

kevin