How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

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jamespetts
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by jamespetts »

anand99 wrote:jamespetts

I have already raised this issue many times before. even before RS was released. I think the response RSAdam gave me a while back on the railsimulator forums was along the lines of RS was never intended to be this type of simulator. their focus apparently was on driving. Although I must say I wonder how many posts you have to make before RSDerek responds directly to your questions. I feel sorry for you man. Keep trying though.
Can you find that post on the forum and link to it? As I have written above, any such assertion would be manifestly contrary to the clear and unequivocal pre-release statements as to the nature of the thing that was being made, as well as to what might be described as the feature stubs already present in the game.

If there are to be timetabled scenarios in which (1) players can jump to any train, which would otherwise be driven by the AI; (2) those trains have realistic operations (so realistic that the player driving badly will realistically disrupt other trains and make them late); and (3) the whole thing can run for "hours", (the three things expressly stated as features of timetabled scenarios), then it necessarily follows that the AI trains must be able to have realistic operations, certainly realistic enough to have locomotive hauled trains turning around in terminus stations as described in my original post on this thread, otherwise those things would simply not be possible.

It is not, after all, as if the features that I describe are inherently difficult to implement: as I have written elsewhere, it is just a matter of some relatively straightforward logic. Any modification to a game such as this would not be a trivial exercise, but certainly far easier than, for example, physics or graphics or sound (which are the things that require particularly specialist programming skills: note the use of a third party physics engine, for example).
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by Scritty »

jamespetts wrote:
anand99 wrote:jamespetts

I have already raised this issue many times before. even before RS was released. I think the response RSAdam gave me a while back on the railsimulator forums was along the lines of RS was never intended to be this type of simulator. their focus apparently was on driving. Although I must say I wonder how many posts you have to make before RSDerek responds directly to your questions. I feel sorry for you man. Keep trying though.
Can you find that post on the forum and link to it? As I have written above, any such assertion would be manifestly contrary to the clear and unequivocal pre-release statements as to the nature of the thing that was being made, as well as to what might be described as the feature stubs already present in the game.

If there are to be timetabled scenarios in which (1) players can jump to any train, which would otherwise be driven by the AI; (2) those trains have realistic operations (so realistic that the player driving badly will realistically disrupt other trains and make them late); and (3) the whole thing can run for "hours", (the three things expressly stated as features of timetabled scenarios), then it necessarily follows that the AI trains must be able to have realistic operations, certainly realistic enough to have locomotive hauled trains turning around in terminus stations as described in my original post on this thread, otherwise those things would simply not be possible.

It is not, after all, as if the features that I describe are inherently difficult to implement: as I have written elsewhere, it is just a matter of some relatively straightforward logic. Any modification to a game such as this would not be a trivial exercise, but certainly far easier than, for example, physics or graphics or sound (which are the things that require particularly specialist programming skills: note the use of a third party physics engine, for example).
I thnk you have a point, at some time in the near future, a post release development timetable - no matter if slightly "rough-cut" would put minds at rest. I look forward to RSAdam's responses next week.

I'm off to Poland later this afternoon, and may well get to see some fantastic loco's on the trip. Though sadly business commitments will probably mean I don't get to ride any :( .

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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by UpsideDownBox »

bigvern wrote:Whether the purpose of a simulator is to offer the experience of driving one train never leaving the forward cab view, or a wider network experience, features such as correctly functioning signalling and the ability to drive to a timetable are essential pre-requisites.
Imagine you sign a deal with a company that isn't known for it's punctuality, for the rights to use that company's image in a game. Next, you decide you'll try to prove that it is possible to do better than that company by setting up a punctual timetable (that is fixed - and you have to be there). Said company, upon hearing this, might say "You can't do that" and suggest that you make the game as close to real life as possible - or they'll remove their name and image from the game.

Consider that situation. You're building things which require that company's name and image in order to be as realistic as possible, but they're threatening to withdraw it.

With that in mind, you change your game, so that players will be asked to arrive at the times the company suggests at the destination. How to solve the wait? Make the time the player has to reach the destination flexible.

If 70% of those who buy the game aren't "serious" about it, why will they care if the time they have to arrive at a destination increases? It happens with time trials in driving games. It allows them to do it without having to wait around and keeps up the need to be punctual.


I don't like it myself, but I understand why it might have been implimented and why nothing can/will be done about it.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by bigvern »

I somehow doubt the "RW" companies thought that way though of course you never know. And so far as the historical routes are concerned would not be a factor anyway.

An interesting concept though for "RW" operation. We have had flexible rostering, now here comes flexible timetabling!!
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by UpsideDownBox »

bigvern wrote:I somehow doubt the "RW" companies thought that way though of course you never know. And so far as the historical routes are concerned would not be a factor anyway.

An interesting concept though for "RW" operation. We have had flexible rostering, now here comes flexible timetabling!!
In other games, companies have reacted as such. I think Need For Speed was an example, where the car manufacturers wouldn't allow the cars to be "damaged" (Edit: This has since changed, so I may be completely wrong). I think Gran Turismo might be a similiar case too.

If you implement something for one route, it'd stand out if it didn't appear on others. Not to mention it being difficult to apply a set of code for one route only, when you have four.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by jamespetts »

Scritty wrote:I'm off to Poland later this afternoon, and may well get to see some fantastic loco's on the trip. Though sadly business commitments will probably mean I don't get to ride any :(
Oooh - do you think that you'll get to see the GWR Prairie tank that they have there?
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by jamespetts »

UpsideDownBox wrote:Imagine you sign a deal with a company that isn't known for it's punctuality, for the rights to use that company's image in a game. Next, you decide you'll try to prove that it is possible to do better than that company by setting up a punctual timetable (that is fixed - and you have to be there). Said company, upon hearing this, might say "You can't do that" and suggest that you make the game as close to real life as possible - or they'll remove their name and image from the game.

Consider that situation. You're building things which require that company's name and image in order to be as realistic as possible, but they're threatening to withdraw it.

With that in mind, you change your game, so that players will be asked to arrive at the times the company suggests at the destination. How to solve the wait? Make the time the player has to reach the destination flexible.

If 70% of those who buy the game aren't "serious" about it, why will they care if the time they have to arrive at a destination increases? It happens with time trials in driving games. It allows them to do it without having to wait around and keeps up the need to be punctual.


I don't like it myself, but I understand why it might have been implimented and why nothing can/will be done about it.
The non-fixed arrival times isn't the issue: that is just a matter of turning the feature on or off, and it is turned off on the default scenarios. The feature to have fixed arrival times is already present, and can easily be turned on. That is why it was not mentioned in the six issues that I listed above.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by jamespetts »

Addendum: it seems that somebody has discovered yet another serious problem that makes it impossible to have realistic railway operations: the AI trains are not affected to any extent by gradients. The effect of this is that the timekeeping properties of AI trains will vary wildly from player trains on all but the flattest of routes, making timetabled operations impossible to devise or run.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by Scritty »

jamespetts wrote:
Scritty wrote:I'm off to Poland later this afternoon, and may well get to see some fantastic loco's on the trip. Though sadly business commitments will probably mean I don't get to ride any :(
Oooh - do you think that you'll get to see the GWR Prairie tank that they have there?
Sadly probably not. See some fantastic vintage electrics though. Last time I went they had several still in service. (and I still didn't get to go on any.. :-? )

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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by pmorgancym »

Having read most of this thread and skmmed the bits that seemed to wander.

I think the issues with the pathing etc., area important, to a degree fustrating, I've certainly played RS I've enjoyed it, the supplied scenarios are a little vanilla, as I've mentioned the possibity of points changing only after you whistle etc.. would be a nice touch. You sense that there is either greatness to be unlocked in RS (certainly a hope we had when the tools were released) or perhaps as we're beginingto discover ambitions that fell short?


So what happened over a Kuju, someone say the basic graphic test and said thats ok release it despite protests that it wasn't fully ready?

Actually I'm no serious fan but I was looking forward to running a station pilot loco, bussily shunting carriages in and out trying to keep to time. In fact much like a model railway I find the real interest is in the shunting activities, the fact that is impossible not to keep to time on the "long run" activites makes them rather pointless.

So my question RS as it stands, does it move the "state of the art" or rail sims onwards in anyway (aside from graphics)? Becase all the press communications from the developers did promise what people are expecting now, if it was sold to us 18months 2 years ago as "well sort of like MSTS but with better graphics" would that have held a whole community waiting eagerly for it;s release? Would we have had so many posts questions etc..?

I doubt it.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by pmorgancym »

Oh and should anyone suggest people are asking too much of RS I've copy and pasted this from the website, the "about RS page"

"Major Enhancements to the Scenario Editor
Along side the downloadable Professional Tools is additional functionality for the Scenario Editor. Once added, these new tools allow users to create immersive and adventurous activities as well as recreate complex real world operations. "

Which it seems we can't, the only analogy I can imagine would be flight sim being unable to handle on the ground taxiing operations.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by bigvern »

pmorgancym wrote: So my question RS as it stands, does it move the "state of the art" or rail sims onwards in anyway (aside from graphics)? Becase all the press communications from the developers did promise what people are expecting now, if it was sold to us 18months 2 years ago as "well sort of like MSTS but with better graphics" would that have held a whole community waiting eagerly for it;s release? Would we have had so many posts questions etc..?

I doubt it.
Unfortunately, answering this candidly is likely to bring forth the attack dogs and their accusations that the MSTS/Zusi/TRS/MSTS2 fanboys are giving RS a hard time and spamming every thread with negativity.

The sanitised answer then, is that there are some interesting new features but hardly ground breaking or revolutionary. Nothing I've read or experienced in RS since writing the review on my site has led me to change the views in that article. I know the Dev Tools are now out and although I haven't had a chance to cut my teeth yet, it seems these are bringing forth a fair number of new issues to gnash the teeth at (not least that setting up a player or AI path you have to fly the whole route to set your calling points). An interesting diversion to look at in one's spare time but not high on the priority list to start doing any serious content creation for. Looking at some of the signalling threads I have a feeling the sort of scripting and non GUI sorting needed to produce a route might well prove beyond my ability anyway.

I think there are probably lessons to be drawn from RS for other developers if they do indeed want their own products to break new ground. Otherwise I'll leave it there.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by pmorgancym »

So as someone who last played MSTS 3 years ago, and never got on with Trainz, I have no axes to grind on that score and can be more blunt and say...

It's not moved things on a whole lot from competiton that was developed several years (and is possibly a step back in some areas). Which could means it's development has been an excercise in futility. (And the graphics aren't exactly ground breaking when compared to a> the current standard of general games b> not hugely advanced over MSTS/Trainz.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by mearle73 »

Im going to say there are at times,ok not many when Im impressed with it,but I still feel this is no more then a beta build,How are they are going to get away releasing this in the states,unless they fix most of the issues.
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Re: How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

Post by RSderek »

Heaven knows I'm miserable now.

Reading this thread I have lost the will to live.

well, almost.

Has everyone been listening to Morrissey?
:)

regards

Derek
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