How RS can't simulate even basic train movements

[jamespetts]

these threads seem totaly pointless to me,nothing anyone writes here will, make any difference to the majority of people who are enjoying KRS.

If you think that the thread is pointless, why are you posting on it? In any event, it was not aimed at those people who are, for the time being, enjoying KRS in its present state: it was aimed at the developers as much as anyone else. I note that they have pointedly failed to comment on any of these issues, which is of very great concern in itself.

surely your best bet would be something like SIG SIM if you like DOS programes with a collection of dots moving around a black background.

I have SimSig. Whilst it can be enjoyable, the lack of realistic graphics of the trains themselves, and no option to drive them, makes it of limited appeal by itself.

remember that KRS is aimed at the general public as was MSTS TRAINZ and what MSTS2 will be aimed at! because like it or not!

Actually, Rail Simulator publicity expressly indicates that the product is aimed at serious enthusiasts just as much as the general public.

if train sim developers relied on train sim enthusiasts for there sales it would totaly flop,
i think i read somewere that train simmers make up only 1% of total sales.

That ignores add-on content, of which enthusiasts purchase a disproportionately large amount. Think of all the people who spend thousands of pounds on model railways, for instance, and if they spent just some of that money on computerised railway simulation instead. Many railway modellers are not going to be remotely interested in Rail Simulator unless and until it has realistic signalling and operations.

Incidentally, do you have a source for that?

In short ,the majority of people who will buy KRS dont give a monkeys about accuracy as long as they can drive trains.

Is there evidence for that?

[RSderek]

it was aimed at the developers as much as anyone else. I note that they have pointedly failed to comment on any of these issues, which is of very great concern in itself.

We are here and reading the threads over lunch, mind you not sure that burger king was a good idea.

What was the question again?

regards

Derek

[NeutronIC]

I think it all needs to be put in to perspective really!

Rail Simulator scenarios can essentially do most of what an MSTS scenario could do, with the bonus that it's a lot easier to write said scenario.

There seem to be pathing bugs, but i'm confident they'll be fixed at some point. Fundamentally at the simple level it works well enough, and for even more complex scenarios you can see the building blocks are there, they just don't work yet.

I would heartily agree with Mike10 that the session capability in Trainz far outstrips anything else out there. On the one level you have the icon-based system which was introduced in TRS2004. Unfortunately in 2004 it didn't really come with many icons so it wasn't really capable of doing much (IMHO). The Trainz community then wrote loads of them, which Auran then bundled with TRS2006 and the result is an extremely rich set of tools for writing complex scripted sessions with lots of advanced interactions - not just AI shunting but AI trains interacting with the player train and more. Get beyond a simple script however and things get very difficult to manage requiring lots of pen and paper help remembering what is where, when and why; since there's no way to advance time to a particular point and essentially you are just dealing with a bunch of square icons. Capability-wise, however, it's really good. On the other level, you've got their fantastic scripting language - purely the domain of the software engineers out there - but for those who could get the hang of it (and it really wasn't that hard) the possibilities were endless. I wrote an AI signalling system for despatching trains from various entry points in to the next available, and suitable, platform depending on what was going on at the time, for example.

Getting back to Rail Simulator...

I think the first implementation is "good enough" for the first cut. I'd like to see the bugs fixed so that it works reliably - I've yet to complete my first scenario that's any more interesting than the rather tedious ones that RS comes with - but it's basically, and fundamentally, good enough.

If they can get the other stuff working in a patch that'll be outstanding however and there are only a few things that really make a big difference to what is possible - definitely more than the sum of its parts if done correctly.

Let's chill out a bit, the point has been made. They'll either understand it or they won't, they'll prioritise it or they won't. Let's leave it until the patch comes out and see what is fixed and what they plan to do after that. Complaining incessantly won't speed things up.

The fact that there are no released scenarios yet tells me that something isn't quite right, by now I would have expected one or two even if simple ones.

In short ,the majority of people who will buy KRS dont give a monkeys about accuracy as long as they can drive trains.

Most of what growler37 says in his post is fairly accurate tbh, in our experience we've found that the community makes up for about 30% of the total users of the sim, at best. It makes up a disproportionately high level of the higher level enthusiast with a lot fewer casual users than the other 70%. Of all the CD's we sell (commercial and community) modern thrash always outsells highly detailed classical steam. Detail just has to be "good enough" and for the majority of the 70%, it's more than good enough.

Still, while it's true to say that the vast majority of your market place is in the casual user, it's also very important for vendors and developers to remember that the enthusiast in the 30% bracket is the person driving the product forwards, producing new content that the 70% bracket will enjoy. Most of your transient users are in the 70% bracket, where as most of your hard core loyal users are in the 30% bracket. So while there is less commercial market and viability in the 30% who are a smaller and harder to please bracket, they are also the ones that keep you going in to version 2 and feed that 70% bracket.

The 30% bracket just have to be realistic and realise that's what they are sometimes though, but then it doesn't hurt to be demanding

Matt.

Matt.

[bigvern]

The key to ongoing support, as mentioned in the modelling forum, is getting the 3D importation sorted. While I'm sure we all have ideas about a Black Five and stock from York to Newcastle and back (or Class 47 round trip), there's only so much that can be done to the default routes. The long term success is engaging those who will actually build the routes, buildings, signals and rolling stock. There's little point sitting down and starting to build my (say) Swedish route if all I can use are the default items. Ditto when it comes to the trains. An element of chicken and egg here - maybe by the time the new laptop arrives the 3DC plug-in will be available but there are also those using Gmax who need to be catered for.

It's hard not to notice that the scenery modelling section of the forum as yet does not contain a single thread...

[RSderek]

Hi Bigvern,

I understand your frustration, and you will just have to believe me when I say we are working on it and hope to have something very soon.
We will try to cater for as many people/packages as possible.

regards

Derek

[peterholton]

edit: posted same time as Derek, said basically the same thing...

Additionally, the material shaders in the texturing toolbox make it really easy to make convincing scenery: there'll be lots of addons very quickly!

Peter

[johndibben]

There is a slow down of posts regarding content creation and I feel an exporter is becoming very urgent to keep the momentum going.

I believe that would allow RS to take off more than a patch.

I'd like both though

*Edit*

Derek's posted.

[ged4246uk]

these threads seem totaly pointless to me,nothing anyone writes here will, make any difference to the majority of people who are enjoying KRS.

If you think that the thread is pointless, why are you posting on it? In any event, it was not aimed at those people who are, for the time being, enjoying KRS in its present state: it was aimed at the developers as much as anyone else. I note that they have pointedly failed to comment on any of these issues, which is of very great concern in itself.

surely your best bet would be something like SIG SIM if you like DOS programes with a collection of dots moving around a black background.

I have SimSig. Whilst it can be enjoyable, the lack of realistic graphics of the trains themselves, and no option to drive them, makes it of limited appeal by itself.

remember that KRS is aimed at the general public as was MSTS TRAINZ and what MSTS2 will be aimed at! because like it or not!

Actually, Rail Simulator publicity expressly indicates that the product is aimed at serious enthusiasts just as much as the general public.

if train sim developers relied on train sim enthusiasts for there sales it would totaly flop,
i think i read somewere that train simmers make up only 1% of total sales.

That ignores add-on content, of which enthusiasts purchase a disproportionately large amount. Think of all the people who spend thousands of pounds on model railways, for instance, and if they spent just some of that money on computerised railway simulation instead. Many railway modellers are not going to be remotely interested in Rail Simulator unless and until it has realistic signalling and operations.

Incidentally, do you have a source for that?

In short ,the majority of people who will buy KRS dont give a monkeys about accuracy as long as they can drive trains.

Is there evidence for that?

these threads seem totaly pointless to me,nothing anyone writes here will, make any difference to the majority of people who are enjoying KRS.

If you think that the thread is pointless, why are you posting on it? In any event, it was not aimed at those people who are, for the time being, enjoying KRS in its present state: it was aimed at the developers as much as anyone else. I note that they have pointedly failed to comment on any of these issues, which is of very great concern in itself.

surely your best bet would be something like SIG SIM if you like DOS programes with a collection of dots moving around a black background.

I have SimSig. Whilst it can be enjoyable, the lack of realistic graphics of the trains themselves, and no option to drive them, makes it of limited appeal by itself.

remember that KRS is aimed at the general public as was MSTS TRAINZ and what MSTS2 will be aimed at! because like it or not!

Actually, Rail Simulator publicity expressly indicates that the product is aimed at serious enthusiasts just as much as the general public.

if train sim developers relied on train sim enthusiasts for there sales it would totaly flop,
i think i read somewere that train simmers make up only 1% of total sales.

That ignores add-on content, of which enthusiasts purchase a disproportionately large amount. Think of all the people who spend thousands of pounds on model railways, for instance, and if they spent just some of that money on computerised railway simulation instead. Many railway modellers are not going to be remotely interested in Rail Simulator unless and until it has realistic signalling and operations.

Incidentally, do you have a source for that?

In short ,the majority of people who will buy KRS dont give a monkeys about accuracy as long as they can drive trains.

Is there evidence for that?

Yes i am one,why not have a poll just to see who like it very good, good, not very good ,poor with out comment as lot of views as been noter we don,t want to go all over it,again do we. anyone visiting this site will have better way of marking the mines up . And there is more info if they wish to read it on the site
all the best
ged

[jivebunny]

An interesting read so far I agree with the view that it's important to cater to those who want to simulate railway operations, if you can't do that in a rail simulator (going back to the "network" statements made by Kuju) then surely it's missed one of it's main aims? Yes, I want to drive a train from A to B, but I want to see interesting things going on when I'm winding my way out of a big terminus or arriving with in a yard with a rake of tankers. I want the trains to have a purpose rather than just appearing in one place, moving to another and then disappearing. If you can't set up simple operations like this to make the environment believeable then how is RS any different from MSTS?

I have to back Mike10 up on his comments about TRS. It has it's shortfalls like any other sim, but the main reason I love to use it is the way you can make the trains do more or less whatever you want. It's flexible. If a certain operation can't be done or if a feature is missing, someone will come up with a way of changing that. I have a number of routes where the trains terminate and the stock is removed by a second locomotive to release the first one and allow it to be turned or taken on shed, and it's very enjoyable to sit back and watch.

Whilst it doesn't really show any of the operations discussed in this thread, the below video does show the possibilities with the AI and driver commands in TRS. The entire sequence uses only trackmarks (to tell the trains where to go), triggers (to tell them when they can proceed) and signals in order to allow eight separate "trains" to arrive at or depart from the depot in the space of 10 minutes. Of particular interest will be the Class 101 pulling up to the signal outside the DMU shed and waiting for the other Class 101 to depart, and also the 3F towards the end which shunts and splits a long rake of Mk1s into two separate sidings of the carriage sheds. I still haven't bought RS so I would be keen to see if it can handle this sort of traffic. I am not pitting RS against TRS but simply curious as to whether this can be achieved in RS, and if not then simply to show what I think many of us are interested in.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KF6Dz_PkIrQ

Cheers,

JB

[AndiS]

Very interesting video. It nicely illustrates the clash of cultures between the different cults. As an outsider, I wonder how people discuss realism and make videos about their samples of realism and the viewer finds himself on a grid of yellow lines. Your video is not the only one in YouTube, so be no means this is a personal attack. It just gave me a blow -- I always hated the green baseboards on which most MSTS routes are situated, but green is definitely more realistic than grey with yellow lines. Obviously, Trainz users do not see them anymore, or find them as normal as blurry, greenish puke.

Back to your question, I would say that apart from the splitting of the rake of Mk1s KRS should handle that, going by the docu. Whether current limitations of the AI dispatcher hinder it must be found out in trials.

[captaincooke]

Very interesting video. It nicely illustrates the clash of cultures between the different cults. As an outsider, I wonder how people discuss realism and make videos about their samples of realism and the viewer finds himself on a grid of yellow lines. Your video is not the only one in YouTube, so be no means this is a personal attack. It just gave me a blow -- I always hated the green baseboards on which most MSTS routes are situated, but green is definitely more realistic than grey with yellow lines. Obviously, Trainz users do not see them anymore, or find them as normal as blurry, greenish puke.

Trainz is capable of texturing the landscape. Was this paragraph really necessary or useful to the point?

[jivebunny]

Andi, I apologise for not making it clear that the demonstration layout was not a finished route. I assumed the yellow and grey grid would make this obvious to most users

As this thread is about train movements, I thought it would be helpful to post a video demonstrating train movements in TRS. If the thread was about texturing the landscape, then I may have elected to post a screenshot such as this one.



JB

[AdamsRadial]

jivebunny wrote

Whilst it doesn't really show any of the operations discussed in this thread, the below video does show the possibilities with the AI and driver commands in TRS

A fascinating video, and it captured the flavour of watching a railway very well indeed. It is the sort of thing I would like to do myself, and was starting to get to grips with when RS arrived in the post. I'll have to say the sounds let down Trainz more than anything else, though.

In answer to Andis' comment, a default baseboard is simply that, and I for one got heartily sick of the MSTS default green, but it's not a feature of either sim I would use to either choose or decline if making a decision which to devote most time to.

It might be asking too much of RSDL to add that sort of scripting capability to their product, but we do not know what sort of hooks have been left in the code to allow for future enhancements. I think we should be drawing these sort of things to their attention, but equally, if the sim can't handle it, what's the point in crying over it?

But, as far as priorities go, I'll put scripting well down the list; I agree with BigVern, until content creators are able to add new items to the game, it's very limiting. I don;t want to populate my small plot of North Kent with uprooted Somerset items, much as I would have been loath to have filled it full of the Settle and Carlisle stonework.

[AndiS]

I know very well that you can have beautiful landscapes in Trainz. I was just taken off my feed by the fact that two of the published videos in that department had this grid. And I was referring to the very different perception of Trainz by different people based on different samples which vary much wider for Trainz than for MSTS. And to the fact, that different people focus on different things, loosing other things completely out of view. To me, it was and interesting demonstration of complex train operations, but both visuals (accept for the exhaust) and sound simply did convey the least flavour of watching trains, speaking strictly for my own personal taste. Also, I am still haunted by the claim that KRS would be the most realistic available train sim. So I am still looking for a Trainz route which has realistic landscape plus prototypical physics plus good sound plus prototypical signalling. But I seem to get off topic here.

[Smileyman]

Since I'm one of those people who wrote operational commands for Trains, like "UnCouplez", around the TRS2004 period, I'd like to stick my oar in.

The scripting language and the Sessions, Rules and Command structure of Trainz is definitely one of it's best features.
With a lot of thought, you can create some great operations (see this page of my Trainz website for an example: http://smileydesign.co.uk/TrainzLab/2locos.htm

But there's a couple of things we should remember.

First of all, one of the worst problems with Trainz is the AI. It tries to think too much for itself, and ends up interfering with other operations.
You really do have to "dumb" it down, so that the layout is easy for the AI to understand, and even then, there's no guarantee it'll behave itself (doesn't mean that TRS2004 can't be fun though )

Secondly, let's not forget that this is the first version of KRS, and that both Adam and Derek are relaying our thoughts to those in command, as well as keeping us up to date on what's happening (just like Auran did in the early days).
For those who were around in the early days of Trainz, there was no scripting language, no AI control over other trains, and certainly no scenario editor (and there never was from Auran. Just 3rd party utilities from people like myself and Mike over at TPR).

My point?
Simply that my expectations for KRS were for it to have the prototypical feel of MSTS and the user-friendliness of Trainz, and I think KRS has that.
We already have a scenario editor which has great potential, provided RSD listen to the public about what else is needed in there, and we already have a successor to Trainz Surveyor (although Trainz converts will be probably be a little unsure, as we have to learn a new system of building, but it's worth it).
And all this in Version 1.

I'm sure things like decoupling and automatic operations will be considered for inclusion in KRS at some point.
RSD obviously don't need any info on MSTS , but I would suggest they get a copy of TRS2004 for the office if they don't already have it, and check out the types of operations possible.

I would love to see KRS have the best of both worlds (MSTS and TRS).
Am I alone in this?

Smiley.