Credit where credit is due.

[stewart]

What I have said however is we have read your critisism, we are aware of your critisism, there is no need to continually repeat your critisism. Like many others I would much rather get on to conversations where we are concerned with getting the best out of the sim as it stands, rather than listening to the clatter of toys hitting the floor as they are thrown out of the pram.

And you'll continue to read mine until I see some constuctive discussion and work on the problems from RS ... FYI - my toys are still in the pram.

~A~

Great, as long as you are not repeating the same points over and over.

[mickoo737]

I'm simply going to state facts ..... yadayada

These would be the facts ... as you see them .

~A~

They are also the facts as I see them, and I would venture many others see them in a similar light. I am not expecting everyone to like RS. I myself acknowledge there are flaws which need to be addressed. But I dont want to see the same old critisisms from the same old characters repeated time after time on these forums. I have never said to anyone dont critisise. What I have said however is we have read your critisism, we are aware of your critisism, there is no need to continually repeat your critisism. Like many others I would much rather get on to conversations where we are concerned with getting the best out of the sim as it stands, rather than listening to the clatter of toys hitting the floor as they are thrown out of the pram.

With respect, your constant criticsim of those who criticise will, if you are not carefull, put you in the exact group you despise, you are against constant criticism, others are against your constant criticism of them, in short you are fueling the debate in your own innocent way and could be tarred with the brush of constantly carping on.

Just a detached observation, nothing more, nothing less.

Regards

[stewart]

Either you are not reading my posts properly or are choosing to deliberately misinterprete them. I am not seeking to criticise those who critcise railsim. I merely point out that constant repetition of the said criticsism is what I and many others find disagreeable. Now that we have both made our feelings clear on that matter, hopefully we can move on and enjoy the sim without raking over more old coals.

[mickoo737]

Either you are not reading my posts properly or are choosing to deliberately misinterprete them. I am not seeking to criticise those who critcise railsim. I merely point out that constant repetition of the said criticsism is what I and many others find disagreeable. Now that we have both made our feelings clear on that matter, hopefully we can move on and enjoy the sim without raking over more old coals.

I have no feelings on the matter, it was a detached observation, a fact if you like, much like John posted earlier.

There is no difference between those who constantly criticise and those who constantly criticise those that are doing the criticism, both parties at the end of the day are criticising something or someone.

Who here has the right to decide which party is right ?, I offer no one, there both as bad as each other, or as good as each other depending on which line of thought you prefer.

You do not have the right to tell people to stop criticising, nor do I have the right to tell you to stop criticising me.

Taking it further, as you rightly point out, you object to the repetition of criticism, others may object to your repetition of criticism of there repeating criticism.

In short everyone feels they have to have the last word and both parties...ironically....are feeding off each other and....doubly ironically....fueling each other, the debate is a self feeding downward spiralling event as neither side wishes to back off for fear of loosing face.

Regards

[jascott]

This post started positive, went awry, I tried to get it back on a positive note and now I give up.

What's the point?

John

[stewart]

Either you are not reading my posts properly or are choosing to deliberately misinterprete them. I am not seeking to criticise those who critcise railsim. I merely point out that constant repetition of the said criticsism is what I and many others find disagreeable. Now that we have both made our feelings clear on that matter, hopefully we can move on and enjoy the sim without raking over more old coals.

I have no feelings on the matter, it was a detached observation, a fact if you like, much like John posted earlier.

There is no difference between those who constantly criticise and those who constantly criticise those that are doing the criticism, both parties at the end of the day are criticising something or someone.

Who here has the right to decide which party is right ?, I offer no one, there both as bad as each other, or as good as each other depending on which line of thought you prefer.

You do not have the right to tell people to stop criticising, nor do I have the right to tell you to stop criticising me.

Taking it further, as you rightly point out, you object to the repetition of criticism, others may object to your repetition of criticism of there repeating criticism.

In short everyone feels they have to have the last word and both parties...ironically....are feeding off each other and....doubly ironically....fueling each other, the debate is a self feeding downward spiralling event as neither side wishes to back off for fear of loosing face.

Regards

I have no interest in saving face or losing face, I also have no interest in carrying on this discussion with you any further. I have stated my point and hopefully it can be left at that.
As I have said hopefully we can move on and enjoy the sim without raking over more old coals.

[growler37]

Hi,
I am going to put this topic back on track!(pardon the pun)
i am realy amazed by the level of detail on the locos,last evening, i had a good look at the bogies on the HST the attention to detail is awsome.
A pal of mine who is a FGW fitter was very impressed with accuracy and also the in cab sound.
Zoom in on the fuel tank gauge not just a blurry white blob but a readable item.
i know that the models in TRAINZ are very good (as they most certainly are) but the models in KRS are extremely impressive.
Well done KUJU.
with kind regards.
kevin

[mickoo737]

This post started positive, went awry, I tried to get it back on a positive note and now I give up.

What's the point?

John

There is every point, if its something your believe in then you should defend it, but respect others who do not, that is essentially where this thread has gone / going and if at its conclusion allows both parties to realise they can co-exist amicably and respect each others differing opinions in the face of adversity to there own, then this thread will have achieved far more then simple accolades for a mere game.

It is an issue that is clearly on a lot of peoples minds and it will be out, if not this thread then another and another, and it will keep rearing its head until it is put to bed to the satisfaction of all, trying to repress it will only generate dissent and fractionise the parties even more.

There are plenty of sticky threads to help people with game aspects, but not one for peoples feelings or issues ( perceived or genuine ), there should be one where everybody can sit down and air there points of view with out fear or reprocussion or reproach and with repsect from the other party, it would be monitored by the mods closely and once the issue's closed thats the end of it.

But l bet if such a sticky "help me l want to voice my views" thread was set up, very few would participate, those who do having a genuine wish to resolve the issue, those that dont, obviously having no intention of settling the issue, then and only then will you see who wants to help and who just wants to poke at random.

If people really want to help the situation, from both parties then there needs to be ONE thread where ALL the issues can be aired and debated, those that are sick of such writings need not go there, those with genuine concerns can voice there view and discuss it with those they are ( hopefully ) upsetting. As l said, l think it'd be a rather silent or one side debate as I think those that disagree with the dissenters would feel they have got there way and shoved all those with concerns into a corner, out of sight out of mind springs to mind.

But there you go, just an isolated observation some might consider an objective exercise.

Regards

[nestfilms]

Its a shame really, these forums 5 or so years ago used to be fun to read and every once in a while a little argument would spring up to break the regular cycle.
these days its a multiple daily occurance at least 2 or 3 going on at the same time and on quite a few occasions its the same people fueling the fire,(not necassarily staring them) no need to name names (that would be against the rules) past posts clearly show who if you read far enough back. How quickly it seems people forget.

I don't suppose there is any chance of having a week where nobody is sniping at anyone else is there? to much to ask?

Not having ago really at anyone here just mickoos post made me think (all the critiscise of critiscm bit)

------------------------------------
Instructions on tonal content and vocal inflection - to be read in a mournful and sorrowful tone with sadness and pure depression

[phill70]

By all means "voice your views" but don't argue about it, this is yet another thread that has very nearly turned in to a disaster area.
If you want to argue the toss, do it somewhere else, and NOT on the forums.

[johndibben]

If you have anyone in any walk of life who repeatedly criticises without provocation, he or she will be criticised in turn. The former is causing the disquiet and the latter pointing it out. They are not the same and only by perverting logic could both be held to blame equally.

I could say that those constantly complaining require a response to continue to complain as if no one replied then their criticism would soon drop down the page. However, reasonably content supporters of the RS arn't organised, far more numerous and a response is guaranteed. To award themselves 'victim status' and complain about an invetible response is a simply a ploy. It would never cut any ice in any gathering of people anywhere in society.

Now I'm not simply arguing the toss but making a serious suggestion in thiis post. I've been considering it carefully today and come up with the following proposal to achieve peace where such is sought, protects those who do and punishes those who do not.

The suggestion is based upon the rules which ban text speak, bad language or posting in a manner likely to cause offence. It also reflects the clear annoyance to mods and members of multiple posts in differing or even the same forums. It also draws upon the notion that the moderators' word is final. There's a slight problem with the final point in that moderators have expressed publicly, differing levels of tolerance to RS which I said would be a problem.

The proposal is simply that multiple posts making the same point either directly or indirectly are not allowed within a reasonable period. Moderators to define reasonable. This would prevent repeated comments and repeated replies and the downward spiral which ensues. This would avoid many arguments as most go around in circles.

Everyone would be able to make their point. This is a discussion forum and everyone else would be able to place their own point in reply (once). Everyone would have to consider their post more carefully. The circle is broken.

This would improve matters on all forums.

There is no reason for repetition within a short period and if prevented would prevent repetition of replies.

It is so, so simple and workable.

I'm well aware of the urge to have the last word but a well thought out criticism will stand on it's own merits and if supported by others will gain in credibility. However, if the majority do not agree then the original poster will have to accept he or she is in the minority. They can have a poll if they feel others may not wish speak out as it's anonymous.

Those with good intent and mods who want to spend less time reading repititious posts which will inevitably require action unless someone 'wins', would surely support this proposal to amend the rules.

I'm looking for an equitable solution.

I believe this is it.

[photons66]

Yes but that's the trouble with forums. They start off small and crescendo into something big. If you have lots of users, you have lots of points of view. Lots of points of view means that you will almost inevitably have a clash.
I agree with your last post, johndibben, but that's enough for me. I will not get involved in these arguments or these argumentative posts. I merely stated a fact that's neutral and on-the-fence.

[johndibben]

I've posted the same ideas in the Admin Forum as this is a website wide issue.

I've added tht if a discussion is developed in a relevant manner then the discussion would continue but so many arn't.

I also believe there is an alternative which acknowledges to the inevitable as photon66 pointed out which is that clashes will occur and should take their course within the rules of decency.

I'd be more than content to persue these matters to the bitter end as I believe forums thrive upon rough and tumble but acknowledge I'm in the minority and many are upset by such antics and have no wish to offend anyone with good intent.

[growler37]

Hi,
i really dont understand why this situation persists,this forum is to discuss KRS,now its pretty obvious that some posters have strong feelings against KRS.
As they are entitled to! but surely its obvious that no ammount of ranting is going to change anybodys oppinion.
I feel that the solution is that the mods insist that posters keep to the subject of the thread,
this thread is a classic example,also a lot of the threads are just repitition over and over again.
in the end(i am going to repeat myself again) if KRS is making you unhappy and raising the blood pressure,uninstall it and forget it.
MSTS and TRAINZ are fine simulators and will be for a long time.
but please dont try to be negative just for the sake of it, when you have already made up your mind that you dont like KRS.
the majority of people are realy enjoying KRS and would like some intresting and constructive dialog
with kind regards to ALL
kevin

[Easilyconfused]

There certainly has been a lot of repetition and the moderators have been wading through it all and sorting out the posts that fall outside the code of conduct (well attempting to anyway). The problem is that if we are too active about that then people say we are protecting RSDL and if we let things run then people say we are letting people attack RSDL. It is all about the middle ground.

The weekend immediately after the release of RS I was online most of the weekend including a couple of 16+ hour days dealing with the huge outpouring of posts onto the forums and to be honest it all got a bit tedious after a while seeing the same things rehashed multiple times. Not much has changed since so in my case I am inclined to let people have their say even if it has been said before since any time I cull posts people start grumbling about UKTS not allowing free speech.

As John noted - don't try this elsewhere or you might find yourself in hot water.

It is true to say that there are a number of people who have formed their opinion and no amount of reasoning or explanation from RSDL will change their mind so I do wonder why they post in the RS forums.

The converse is true for me - I will not be running Vista for the foreseeable future so MSTS-X or whatever the forthcoming MS release is called is of no interest to me (since it has been announced as a Vista only title) so apart from moderator actions I won't be visiting that forum. Before any Vista fans jump on that - I am making the decision based on good factual experience since I am involved in the Vista deployment for my employer and have seen the support and compatibility issues we are having despite being a Microsoft Strategic Alliance partner.