Credit where credit is due.

[UpsideDownBox]

True, but generally speaking those that complain dont give those that are having fun a hard time, it is those that are having fun who are hammering those that have issues, in short telling them to get a life or go away. I've not seen many or any posts where some one who has issues with RS, has criticised some one who is having lots of fun and is happy with what they have, though l have seen plenty of other posts going the other way from staunch RS supporters towards those with concerns.

I dont read all threads or posts so maybe l missed something but the general air from those ( we do talk privately ) who have concerns and issues ( collectively named the pitchfork brigade ) is one of you're not welcome here, and generally speaking, those with concerns are content providers, some prolific and some less so but none the less important to supporting the longevity of any sim.

Regards

I would disagree. There are threads like this, which start off positively, then those who disagree come along and say "well... I disagree" and repeat the same points that they have done in other posts in other threads.

Those who criticise it, are repeating themselves and it's irritating to read a new post and find out it's all been said before, but in a slightly different way.

I would say that it's true, those with "concerns and issues" aren't welcome here, partly because they're repeating themselves and partly because those who have embraced RS know of it's faults, but don't see them as a problem because RSDL has already released more than Microsoft ever did for MSTS (1 patch compared to 7 new skins, with promise of more to come).

There is another reason why those voicing their "concerns and issues" are seen as a problem - the need to say "Oh, I'll wait for MSTS 2".

There could be just as many problems with that. The faults could be identical. What if super-elevation doesn't make it into MSTS2? What if the front coupler on one of the locomotives doesn't work? What if the cab views can't be seen out of and control the train at the same time?

MSTS2 is an unknown. It is far better to embrace what is here now, than to raise hopes for a perfect game with no scheduled release date and end up being let down.

[mickoo737]

Repeated praise ad nausium is acceptable but repeated critism isnt ?, my what a balanced place this would be then ?.

It should be pointed out that its only critism which gets things changed or fixed and raises the bar for all. If everyone was happy then there would be no improvements, adversity is the mother of all invention.

Regards

[mickoo737]

It may be noticed content providers are only as popular as their last contribution. Their influence above others dwindles rapidly. I doubt many on here have even heard of the 'grandees' of the past.

Agreed and a rather shallow attitude even you l think would agree with. Sadly the gimipigs rule, if you dont supply the latest and greatest your a nobody.

New sim, fresh start, all are equal and no one is above anyone else.

Except those which stand aloof and defend what they think is right at the expense of those with concerns ( unwarrented and trumpeted as such by those who are satisfied ).

Regards

[RSderek]

'All we are saying... is give peace a chance...'

all together now...

'All we... etc etc.'

This thread started so well too...

It's great to see people passionate but not so nice to see everyone fighting.

Guys, you paid up to £30 for the game and a set of tools to make your own routes, not only that you got the developer tools/documentation and some extra skins (and bugs) for free. The licence agreement is more than fair, once everyone understood it. We have given personal service and many hours of our time to a great number on here, often at unsociable hours. I ask you, where else would you get that for such a small investment?

The game will get better over time with help from us/3rd party and you guys. There are some cracking add on stuff in the pipeline, not to mention some great work already done by the community.

We have acknowledged peoples views and many of the issues people have with the sim.(Some are bugs, some are not)

The team thank those that thank us, we toasted you yesterday with champers, to the rest of you, we hope to change your views as we move forward.

Lets stop the fighting and all board the love train.


Best regards

Derek

hmm that Glenmorangie really does make me feel warm inside.

[fgrsimon]

I would say that it's true, those with "concerns and issues" aren't welcome here, partly because they're repeating themselves and partly because those who have embraced RS know of it's faults, but don't see them as a problem because RSDL has already released more than Microsoft ever did for MSTS (1 patch compared to 7 new skins, with promise of more to come).

Moderator :- Everyone is welcome here as long as they stay within the rules. It certainly isn't up to individual members to say otherwise.

[UpsideDownBox]

I would say that it's true, those with "concerns and issues" aren't welcome here, partly because they're repeating themselves and partly because those who have embraced RS know of it's faults, but don't see them as a problem because RSDL has already released more than Microsoft ever did for MSTS (1 patch compared to 7 new skins, with promise of more to come).

Moderator :- Everyone is welcome here as long as they stay within the rules. It certainly isn't up to individual members to say otherwise.

I feel that is slightly misleading, since I was replying to a quote which said

... the general air from those ... who have concerns and issues ... is one of you're not welcome here ...

I did not wish to come across as saying who should or should not post, but try to explain why (in my opinion) those with criticism are made to feel unwelcome compared to those who support the game.

[UpsideDownBox]

Repeated praise ad nausium is acceptable but repeated critism isnt ?, my what a balanced place this would be then ?.

It should be pointed out that its only critism which gets things changed or fixed and raises the bar for all. If everyone was happy then there would be no improvements, adversity is the mother of all invention.

Regards

There is a difference between repeated criticism and repeated praise.

For the most part, the criticism comes from the same people, where as the praise is usually from a different, sometimes new to the community, user. At least, that's what praise I've read.

Criticism does get things changed or fixed, but I do not see how people saying "I have deleted RS and will now eagerly await MSTS2" seek to change or fix RS, but merely wish to put it down. That kind of criticism, has probably caused the backlash towards critics.

[mickoo737]

Repeated praise ad nauseum is acceptable but repeated criticism isnt ?, my what a balanced place this would be then ?.

It should be pointed out that its only criticism which gets things changed or fixed and raises the bar for all. If everyone was happy then there would be no improvements, adversity is the mother of all invention.

Regards

There is a difference between repeated criticism and repeated praise.

For the most part, the criticism comes from the same people, where as the praise is usually from a different, sometimes new to the community, user. At least, that's what praise I've read.

Criticism does get things changed or fixed, but I do not see how people saying "I have deleted RS and will now eagerly await MSTS2" seek to change or fix RS, but merely wish to put it down. That kind of criticism, has probably caused the backlash towards critics.

Perhaps then we should segregate the critics, because I and several others have never said they have resigned RS to the bin. the critics I side with are those who wish to see technical details resolved or explanations given, ie licenses, signaling, content creation, not the game is . and I'm loving waiting for TSx, I think too many people are applying too broad a brush to one group of people and collectively calling them critiques.

I am firmly in the MS camp, I beta for them and produce content for the flight Sim range and train Sim range, that does not make me automatically an enemy of RS the minute I mention something I think is wrong, my criticism of FSx is far more voracious than that of RS, I strongly disagree with the lock in to Vista and DX10 to get the best from it and will voice the same if TSx has the same lock downs, and no, MS are probably no better than RS, that argument is null and void.

I have also said praise for RS, few and far l admit, but I'm big enough to admit it has its plus points.

[Mike10]

Guys, you paid up to £30 for the game and a set of tools to make your own routes, not only that you got the developer tools/documentation and some extra skins (and bugs) for free. The licence agreement is more than fair, once everyone understood it. We have given personal service and many hours of our time to a great number on here, often at unsociable hours. I ask you, where else would you get that for such a small investment?

Since you asked: http://www.trainzclassics.com/

And they allow you abandon without saving changes when you make a mistake or to delete stuff you no longer want

Mike.

[jascott]

Dear, oh dear.

I started this thread to try to give some credit to RSDL for their developer tools and their continued presence on these forums and once again it has turned into something else.

My stance is quite clear. I like RS but clearly recognise its faults and fully expect the faults to be corrected. I have read every post on the RS forum here and negative posts far outnumbered the positive ones initially. In fact the first positive posts did not appear until there was a very large number of negative posts and some of them were very heated, eg "To whom do I return this rubbish?" There are as many "non-supporters" criticising "supporters" as the other way round and to suggest otherwise is just adding heat when it is unnecessary.

Negativity has no merit unless it is changed almost instantly into something positive, eg "this is rubbish but here is how to make it better".

At least now we are getting posts aimed at helping each other to produce routes, scenarios etc, which I think is the real purpose of these forums. I would much rather read through that kind of post than the stuff we have had for weeks

I am just sick fed up reading the same stuff over and over again from the same people.

Can we not just accept that some like it and some don't and get on with it. if you never want to use it, then that's fine, don't. If you do want to use it - whether or not you like it now - then let's work together with RSDL to maximise it's potential and move forward.

Please, no more bickering.

John

[pmyers]

Can we not just accept that some like it and some don't and get on with it. if you never want to use it, then that's fine, don't. If you do want to use it - whether or not you like it now - then let's work together with RSDL to maximise it's potential and move forward.

A good post John, and very much amplifying my thoughts. Now that the documentation and tools have arrived, I just want to get on and start producing routes and activities. Derek and Adam have shown by their regular attendance here (through thick and thin ) that there is a commitment from RSDL to take the product forward and to remedy the existing problems.

Last night I sat down and did some initial work on my first proper route (The old MR Yate - Thornbury branch). Yes, I was frustrated at first because the concepts have changed, but you realise as you work through it, that amongst it's eccentricities, this is a highly flexible and configurable engine which is going to get a lot better over time.

Paul

[johndibben]

I'm simply going to state facts and the obvious which is this forum has been like no other I've read on UKTS or elsewhere as...

1) Praise has been criticised. There's been gushing praise for many years for products and members which can be nausiating without any complaints that I can remember apart from one content creator who shall remain nameless who did turn on someone who praised him as a 3D god and told him not to be silly

2) There's been suggestions that the 'pros' and 'antis' should be separated. That's unheard of.

3) People who make repeated and sustained comments against Derek, Adam, Kuju or EA (it's often unclear) which cannot conceivably seen as constructive, have been allowed to do so. That's unheard of and I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt it on any other forum, with any other product or any other website dedicated to a specific group or product.

4) The people concerned are astonishing in themselves. Comments such as 'Roll on MSTS2' and 'Get a life' which have been allowed have set a tone which I warned would do no good but was ignored.

5) Repeated criticism is said to be helpful. It only works in moderation.

6) Praise is said to be acquiescent. That's insulting.

7) There's been a suggestion supporters should actually reduce their support to accommodate crtitics. Never heard anything like it in my life.

8 ) Issues usually private have been aired in such a manner as to demean trainsimmers and trainsimming in general. Anyone reading this forum would likely wonder if it is only a game.

My suggestion to those who find praise so unpalletable is to use the little 'Report to a moderator button'. That really would sum up how absurd the situation has become. However, as Matt has said many times, that is the correct method to use to complain. It would certainly make for interesting reading

Whilst everyone is welcome, no one can expect to be welcomed. No one can compel any member to welcome anyone especially if they post in a negative manner repeatedly without a word of praise on a forum where the majority wish to make the best out their purchase. Other members can, will and do express their displeasure although must do so within the rules.

I'd cite my Star Wars following friend who posted yesterday who said he was put off this forum. I can see why and as someone who's been around since day one I do, perhaps wrongly, feel some duty to assist such people. As such I'm confident my concerns about the way others express their concerns has both validity and honesty. Coupled with facts and stating the obvious, anyone with the same motives cannot be wrong in doing so.

[MaxFreak]

I'm simply going to state facts ..... yadayada

These would be the facts ... as you see them .

~A~

[stewart]

I'm simply going to state facts ..... yadayada

These would be the facts ... as you see them .

~A~

They are also the facts as I see them, and I would venture many others see them in a similar light. I am not expecting everyone to like RS. I myself acknowledge there are flaws which need to be addressed. But I dont want to see the same old critisisms from the same old characters repeated time after time on these forums. I have never said to anyone dont critisise. What I have said however is we have read your critisism, we are aware of your critisism, there is no need to continually repeat your critisism. Like many others I would much rather get on to conversations where we are concerned with getting the best out of the sim as it stands, rather than listening to the clatter of toys hitting the floor as they are thrown out of the pram.

[MaxFreak]

What I have said however is we have read your critisism, we are aware of your critisism, there is no need to continually repeat your critisism. Like many others I would much rather get on to conversations where we are concerned with getting the best out of the sim as it stands, rather than listening to the clatter of toys hitting the floor as they are thrown out of the pram.

And you'll continue to read mine until I see some constuctive discussion and work on the problems from RS ... FYI - my toys are still in the pram.

~A~