Not So Fast...

General discussion about Rail Simulator that doesn't really fit in to any specific category. A good place to start if you're not sure what category it should fit in to as well.

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jascott
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Re:

Post by jascott »

AndiS wrote:I am more after a concise statement of the £1000 questions to be answered, let's hope we get both right and clearly so.
I thought the post by Derek seemed clear enough.
RSDerek wrote:So lets clarify a few things to help you all out.
These terms apply to Commercial Developers only.
This does not encompass download sites, as they are not producing the content in the first place. This includes community CD's as they are simply an alternative access method to the same free content.
The Special Notice Requirements in plain english are: Tell us about your product two weeks before you release, and respond within 5 days to any questions we have there after.
If you abide by the above point, there is NO FEE TO PAY.
We want to know whos doing what with regards commercial products. We may even advertise those products on the official site if we see fit!
If you DO NOT want to talk to us, or let us know about your product coming out, then you must pay £1000.
Donationware arrangements are covered in the very last paragraph - Where we suggest getting in contact with us to discuss your intentions
So put simply - Send us some information about your product two weeks before it hits the shelves, and we wont charge you a penny. How bad is that?
John
KlausM
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by KlausM »

@Andi: That's a severability clause ("salvatorische Klausel" in German) that is quite common in contracts. It prevents the whole contract becoming void if some part is void due to laws nobody was aware of. It is only a bad thing if one party intentionally places an illegal section into the contract while the other party is unaware about the legal status.

Klaus
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AndiS
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Post by AndiS »

jascott wrote:
AndiS wrote:I am more after a concise statement of the £1000 questions to be answered, let's hope we get both right and clearly so.
I thought the post by Derek seemed clear enough.
I am pretty sure I read all of his and Adam's post, but I am not aware of a concise list required information. It would be good if they simply put a questionnaire on the web, so you know that once you truthfully and completely filled that in in time, you are done and the licence fee is waived.

For the moment, I just wait and hope that they are working it out behind the scenes, no need to rush this.
pgmetcalf
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by pgmetcalf »

It probably means commercial content, other than your own, which you have used on models or as textures.

I'll shut up now, seeing as I'm at work and shouldn't really be making the time to read threads or surf
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MartinvK
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Re: Re:

Post by MartinvK »

RSDerek wrote:So lets clarify a few things to help you all out.
These terms apply to Commercial Developers only.
This does not encompass download sites, as they are not producing the content in the first place. This includes community CD's as they are simply an alternative access method to the same free content.
The Special Notice Requirements in plain english are: Tell us about your product two weeks before you release, and respond within 5 days to any questions we have there after.
If you abide by the above point, there is NO FEE TO PAY.
We want to know whos doing what with regards commercial products. We may even advertise those products on the official site if we see fit!
If you DO NOT want to talk to us, or let us know about your product coming out, then you must pay £1000.
Donationware arrangements are covered in the very last paragraph - Where we suggest getting in contact with us to discuss your intentions
So put simply - Send us some information about your product two weeks before it hits the shelves, and we wont charge you a penny. How bad is that?
John[/quote]
Without indents or other signs it is hard to know the extent of the words. How much is included in the sentence "Commercial Developers only?"
Does it include the Special Notice Requirements? Cause I read it to mean that if I don't talk to them or let them know I must pay a fine, err fee.

Rather onerous? My message gets lost or I don't want to talk and they get my money, even if the object doesn't sell or wasn't sold. Bah! :bad-words:
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jascott
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Re: Re:

Post by jascott »

MartinvK wrote: Without indents or other signs it is hard to know the extent of the words. How much is included in the sentence "Commercial Developers only?"
Does it include the Special Notice Requirements? Cause I read it to mean that if I don't talk to them or let them know I must pay a fine, err fee.

Rather onerous? My message gets lost or I don't want to talk and they get my money, even if the object doesn't sell or wasn't sold. Bah! :bad-words:
With the wording in the full license statement and the clarification here, I can't see how it can be stated any simpler.

Is there a Commercial Developer out there who would not talk to RS well before their product is due to hit the shelves never mind 2 weeks before? After all they are making a product that needs to work with RS so what reason would they have not to talk. RS are offering the chance of free help, support and publicity. What Commercial Developer would not want that? And by simply talking about their plans they pay nothing.

This is all mountains out of mole's droppings never mind molehills.

John
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MartinvK
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by MartinvK »

Ok, perhaps an over reaction but when they start talking about huge fees that might be waived at their discretion, I like to know exactly what it all implies. Might only be a molehill but people have tripped over smaller things. :oops:
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by leezer3 »

Once again, I'll re-iterate my view, that quite frankly RSDL's attitude is taking the mick. (Not aimed at Adam/ Derek as such, you're really just the messengers)
Your lawyers appear to have gone out of their way to write an ambiguous contract, and which can be interpreted to mean practically whatever you want. While your intentions are good currently, I fear that people will attempt to cash in one way or another.
I don't believe for one minute that any of your licence agreement would hold up in a court of law, again its an example of the fuzzy logic and legalese applied to try and force people to comply, as it would be exceedingly inconvienient to do otherwise.

In short, profit based managers and lawyers have got thier hands on this contract, and created something which is unworkable, and seemingly calculated to alienate both the community and the payware route authors who will make or break your sim.

Cheers
Chris Lees

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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

I'm sure we all get fed up of legal statements, don't read the small print and even agree to conditions which arn't legally enforcable and so on. This often with simple contracts like travelling on a train.

What we have here is a very complex situation made so by add-on creators the minute they moved away from the concept of file-sharing without strings attached. This was caused by muppets abusing the copyright of others. This of copyright rules became longer than the installation instructions.

Then came payware with huge rows over default content. The MS EULA was endlessly picked to pieces not helped by MS not responding as they'd given up on the MSTS. This was never resolved rather than unwritten guidelines being followed by precedent as opposed to any firm definition.

Then there was post and packing CD's which provoked a huge amount of rows as to whether it was profit-making or not. This has never been fully resolved to the satisfaction of all.

Then came donationware. That was less controvertial as it was difficult to object to money going into causes railway enthusiasts would find difficult to object to. Nevertheless, it's potentially an area as controvertial in it's definition as the above.

Then there's websites and subscription charges.

Even the term freeware is debated.

This is only MSTS.

I'm not aware of Trainz issues. It's always said Auran retain a tight grip on content but I don't see where. The DLS is a problem for some as content can't be withdrawn directly by the add-on creator.

Let's face a few facts.

The issues here are an extension of a complax situation which has evolved over 6 years of the community's making.

There's been almost continuous rows in that time over anything over quality, copyright nd many more issues.

I challenge anyone to come up with a license which would suit them as a developer of a new sim, bearing in mind all of the above and that there's still outstanding issues in many minds as to the definition of the various methods of distributing third-party content.

A further challenge would be to come up with one which would also suit the many vested interests which are involved.

Have a feeling the only license which would see agreement would be worded 'Here it is, do what you like with it'.

MS more or less did this and lo the trainsim community was pleased :) They then set about fighting ach other.

But then, out of the Land of Canan came RSDL who sought to have a license and the trainsim community was not pleased (well not those wanting to nake money). The rest held a party.

Agree with AndiS in that there's time to discuss these matters and it would be far more seemly to do so in private. People can gather support on the forums but no one's going to arrange contracts in public. To do any other is to burn bridges and paint yourself into a corner. Notice wiser heads keep quiet. I've no doubt they're interested but realise 'a still tongue makes for a wise head' in these matters.

Don't believe me?

Look around at who's happy and who isn't.

The belief that third-party add-on creators are essential is based on MSTS and Trainz. A case could be made for keeping everything in house. Most commercial content creators work for peanuts and freeware even less. Skills required are increasing. In my opinion it's only fair that some reward is offered even if it's not accepted. As such they're important and should be treated with respect. Important isn't indespensible though as any need is filled if there's a demand. That depends upon the core product. That's the main issue for most and whee our feedback can make a difference.

Why am I bothering with this issue?

Attempting to place the issue into perspective of trainsimming history and waiting for my dinner :)
Last edited by johndibben on Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers

John
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bigvern
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by bigvern »

I find the Trainz system and the DLS works quite well, the only issue (which I have with my current WIP route without some tile optimisation) is a 50Mb limit on zipped file size. After that it would be necessary to find an indie host and tell potential users they will need to access the DLS to obtain the required assets.

AFAIK payware has never been that big a thing with TRS, there are a couple of add-ons from Railwaves but nothing on the lines of what was released for MSTS.

Must admit I've never fully read the Trainz licence to see what it says as regards payware content, but I don't think it involves having to pay a fee to Auran for the privilege.
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Post by johndibben »

bigvern wrote:AFAIK payware has never been that big a thing with TRS, there are a couple of add-ons from Railwaves but nothing on the lines of what was released for MSTS.
Only the WSR and WCML routes are payware. Not sure about routes outside the UK. Trainz Pro Routes do some fantastic freeware routes. Talked about payware but never bothered. The site is set up for it and it even has a shopping basket (I think).

UK payware is with loco's and stock. Check out the prolific output of Barn700. All payware.

That's where the money is.

That said, I've happily paid for other UK payware loco's and stock.

World of Trainz has some brilliant US loco's with loads of scripting.

I'm not here to promote them though but I was to ever create payware, that's the way I'd go as you're your own boss, it's all done direct with little overheads and not the pittance that's left for most MSTS commercials after shops and publishers have taken their cut.
Last edited by johndibben on Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers

John
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Re:

Post by mickoo737 »

johndibben wrote:
Agree with AndiS in that there's time to discuss these matters and it would be far more seemly to do so in private. People can gather support on the forums but no one's going to arrange contracts in public. To do any other is to burn bridges and paint yourself into a corner. Notice wiser heads keep quiet. I've no doubt they're interested but realise 'a still tongue makes for a wise head' in these matters.

Look around at who's happy and who isn't.
Said my bit, got told publically and privately ( rudely ) exactly where to shove it, dont come here for personal abuse and insults so some else came work through all this.

I consider all bridges well and truly burnt, to the pleasure of many given the tirade of private comments.

Regards
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Post by johndibben »

mickoo737 wrote:Said my bit, got told publically and privately ( rudely ) exactly where to shove it, dont come here for personal abuse and insults so some else came work through all this.

I consider all bridges well and truly burnt, to the pleasure of many given the tirade of private comments.

Regards
I feel I must point out that I've not contacted you privately on this matter recently although have done so in the past and we've spoken amicably.

The quote suggests I have been rude.

There are those who do their business by PM but I post my opinions here and you do the same without equivocation.

Thought I'd better make that clear and also that I'd never condone abusive e-mails or PM's. My policy has always been to post them in public somewhere although not received one to date in 6 years which I find reassuring.
Last edited by johndibben on Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers

John
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Re:

Post by mickoo737 »

johndibben wrote:
mickoo737 wrote:Said my bit, got told publically and privately ( rudely ) exactly where to shove it, dont come here for personal abuse and insults so some else came work through all this.

I consider all bridges well and truly burnt, to the pleasure of many given the tirade of private comments.

Regards
I feel I must point out that I've not contacted you privately on this matter recently although have done so in the past and we've spoken amicably.

The quote suggests I have.

There are those who do their business by PM but I post my opinions here and you do the same without equivocation.

Thought I'd better make that clear and also that I'd never condone abusive e-mails or PM's. My policy has always been to post them in public somewhere although not received one to date in 6 years which I find reassuring.
Quite correct, you and I have our differences on screen so to speak, l speak my mind publically and take the brunt publically, l will not take it privately, end of.

I quoted you as you raised the valid point of how some people conduct themselves, it seemed an apt point to tack my recent experiances onto and is not, does not reflect on our often stormy differences of opinion.

Enough people have found my criticism of RS unpalettable, enough to contact me and say so, there point is taken. Luckily the flood of porn mail hasnt arrived as usually does when l criticise anything here, but l'm sure it'll come in time, as it usually does.

Regards
Last edited by mickoo737 on Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not So Fast...

Post by stewart »

I would also like to point out that I have sent no abusive messages or emails to anyone I have disagreements with. Perhaps if you are recieving abuse from members of this forum you should report the matter to a moderator. In fact I would urge anyone in that position to do the same.
Cheers,
Stewart.
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