What are they thinking of...?

General discussion about Rail Simulator that doesn't really fit in to any specific category. A good place to start if you're not sure what category it should fit in to as well.

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peteworsley
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What are they thinking of...?

Post by peteworsley »

RSAdam wrote:There are no fixes coming with the DevTools. As mentioned before, these DevTools do not replace or replicate anything already available. They extend the tool suite for those wishing to get technical.
I hope people don't mind, but I have lifted this quote from the tail-end of another thread, because I was staggered by the implications. Like many others, I assumed that the release of the Developer Tools, coincidentally with the US version, would represent the coming-of-age of Rail Simulator - that an initial patch would be included in the US release and made available to us at the same time.

I cannot imagine what the American market will make of this product as it stands, Developer Tools or not. I have tried to retain my enthusiasm, but having one's loco repeatedly derailed (and frequently over-turned) by wrongly-set trailing points is wearing in the extreme. Having to borrow a helicopter to nip down the line to set the points is not my idea of train-simming either.

It has always worried me that the Developer Tools were not fit to be released at the same time as the simulator itself - it is obvious that train simulation is an extremely pro-active hobby.

There are sufficient well-documented errors (not just missing features) to make a patch absolutely necessary, and yet EA/RSD see fit to release the unpatched version to such a large potential market - that strikes me as either foolish or arrogant.

I'm sad to say that my optimism is fading fast,

Best wishes

Pete W
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by CaptScarlet »

From what I understand the NA release is not happening until 7 Jan 08 according to EBGames ( if you believe them ) so Iam not sure why you are getting worked up about it really. All Adam was doing was clarifying what is in the dev tools. I never assumed that a patch was going to be in it as it was never promised to be.

John
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Post by johndibben »

It was known it would would be the tools and not a patch.

The connection made between the two was pure speculation.

Any patch will come later as they're still adding to the list of bugs and prioritising them.
Cheers

John
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by bigvern »

One wonders what state the Dev Tools themselves will actually be in? If assumptions were made about RS already knowing the problems and working on a patch even prior to release (when it now seems fairly evident they were not), the tools will still be based on V1.0 (well actually it's more like V0.85) of the game and subject to the possibility of just as many bugs and flaws as the main product itself.
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by ratsarrse »

The small number of (occasionally buggy) scenarios out of the box could also not bode well for the utility of the dev tools. On the other hand, the delay could be more to do with needing time to document the tools: we all know how much programmers love to write documentation! :P
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by EdgarCraggs »

Interested in the idea of "qualified" content - gently said, but inexperienced or untested content can affect a sim badly.

Perhaps comparable to fine-scale modelling - will not run hornby but worth the extra effort, it would probably be a smaller but more mature community (for better or worse).
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by jamespetts »

ratsarrse wrote:The small number of (occasionally buggy) scenarios out of the box could also not bode well for the utility of the dev tools.
It has been noted elsewhere that the developer tools to be released on the 12th are an improved version of what was used to create the default content.
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by CaptainBazza »

Yes, patches (when, and if) and the DevKit are two separate matters.

Cheers Bazza
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by PrinceGaz »

I'm not surprised the dev-tools are just that, indeed that is what I expected after reading quite a few posts. My expectation is the first (and hopefully not last) patch for the European release will be released to bring it up to the US version when that is released.
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by peteworsley »

Well, clearly I was wrong in thinking the US release was relatively imminent, and I apologise most sincerely, friends.

So where does that leave the patch situation - perhaps I am also wrong in thinking it needs one fairly urgently - if so, please accept my apologies once again.

Best wishes

Pete W
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Post by AndiS »

You are certainly not wrong in thinking that KRS needs a patch fairly urgently. However, it is also true that they never announced that either US release or patch release will happen really soon. Someone at ts.com made the plausible theory that the US release must be around the corner to be ready for Christmas shopping, but then again we made the same theories about the European release a year ago and it did not help us either.

I assume that they just have so and so much staff and they decided that first they focus on the tools, and then on the patch. Clearly, I would have preferred to have both available at release, it would have made the product look so much better. But as it stands, we need to brave our hearts a few more month and hope that negative PR will not drown the whole project. And I am certainly not blaming those saying something negative about KRS for the bad fate of the project -- anyone with reason sees a lot of problems in the current state of the product.

Still, all I can suggest is relaxing for a few months, we are just seeing a very exciting release schedule with the beta hitting the market months before the (required) last bits of the base software and the fix of the more important errors which were found in the beta phase. First, we could not wait any longer, and now we are worried that it was released too early. I can easily understand people posting negative comments, and I can just as easy understand those posting positive ones. The "jury is simply still out". The fate of the project can only be analysed in January, I guess. If there is still no patch then (and if the patch does not fix all of the important issues) then not much more will grow in the approaching shadow of the new MSTS. But if things are fixed by then and MS are not making insane announcements about an early release, KRS might well slowly but steadily grow to a serious number two behind the new MSTS.
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by simonr »

On the basis of information put out by RSDL, as opposed to guesswork by others, there are three things in progress. These are the dev tools (inc documentation and tutorials), the NA route, and bug fixes. I do not believe there has been any announcement on the timing of the latter.

I would also question the repeated assertion that this thing is full of bugs. Not working in the way that the community hoped is not the same as it being full of bugs. In the software industry a bug is generally taken to mean a deviation from the intended design. There are bugs and there are deliberate design decisions both of which are responsible for deviations from what was hoped for.

For instance a bug is the trees across the Didcot Avoiding Line. A deliberate design decision is getting a green aspect into a dead end platform instead of a yellow. Both are wrong but one was intended and other was not. Apart from the blindingly obvious things like the constant coal falling, only RSDL know which is which and they will inevitably concentrate their resources on the things which were unintended. Whether some of the design decisions were the right ones is a completely different issue and clearly a number were not in terms of achieving the desired end result. However we do not know the background as to why such decisions were made and I do not subscribe to the view that it is always down to incompetence.
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by lateagain »

I'm staggered that you've all started quibbling over semantics and whether A was promised or B was promised or whether A would or should coincide with the release of X etc.etc.

Pete I see no reason for you to apologise.

You are a customer. You are entitled to ask why faults are not corrected. You've paid your money and the product has dissapointed....not just you but many people (unless all the quibbles in this forum are rubbish)

I am a keen rail simmer, potential customer and currently (knowingly....see below) a beta tester of an upcoming MSTS route.

Never mind the US version. That only becomes of interest if the other issues are addressed.

Sure the tools may need extra development time, although releasing the sim without the tools has obviously been a BAD idea, but patches and fixes are quite THE most important issue.

Objectively, forget the specific programme here, faulty software needs patching. Consider the following:

1) M$ CONSTANTLY update their products with patches. (Windows/Office Updates)

2) If a fault is fixable why isn't it fixed and a patch issued?

3) Why are they compiling a list of faults to issue a MAJOR patch? To save face that might be lost if the number of small patches seems to great?!

4) By all means draw a line at regular intervals and issue one complete bunch of patches. DO make those inclusive of all previous patches too.....but that's no reason not to start patching straight away.

5) It seems to me that you've all paid to be Beta Testers. Right or Wrong that's what in effect you've all become. With that as a "given" it's crazy not to act on the feedback.

It looks to me, more and more as if this has been released as a knee jerk reaction to the announcement of MSTS2 but being first doesn't make it. Being better just might.

Pete I think your post was perfectly reasonable. Whether you misunderstood the "schedule" of future releases is TOTALLY irrelevant. Fixing what you bought is THE issue.

Geoff
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by pmorgancym »

I find this worrying, ok they havn't promised a patch to be released on the 12th, but I think a lot of us expected one, because thats the logical thing to do. I'm concered that this si going exactly the same way as MSTS, where we had 1 minor patch after 18 months, which fixed things the community had long ago found work arounds for.

I think what makes it more fustrating is that the more I play the game the more potential I see, I was playing (Whatever the goods scenario on the S&D is called) last night, and shunting at Evercreech, where some of the poinhts are changed for you as you shunt, I was wondering if whistle cdoes could somehow be incorperated, i.e. pull forward, give the signal box 1 long 2 short (or whatever) and then the road is set for you.

Hopefully the dev tools will allowed the skilled amoung the community to start producing scenarios that really show us what RS can do. On the flip side I'm concerned by the same scenario I mentioned earlier that all other traffic I've come across is stationary, and even after passing it, looking back with free cam it never moves, is this is what is ment by "Timetabling is not yet functioning"
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Re: What are they thinking of...?

Post by ntypeman »

Geoff,

hope you don't mind me putting my penny's worth in but:
lateagain wrote:Objectively, forget the specific programme here, faulty software needs patching. Consider the following:

1) M$ CONSTANTLY update their products with patches. (Windows/Office Updates)
Granted... but then again MS have hundreds or (possibly) even thousands of staff to call upon... When a product needs patching, it probably doesn't take long for LOTS of people to complete a task or patch and also there are possibly even DEDICATED people who work on these sort of projects all the time...

Now I'm pretty sure that RSDL aren't as big as MS and I'm sure they are doing their best... Believe me... I'm as frustrated as the next person but I'm just hanging on in there... It would be interesting to hear what "RSDerek" has to say about this - although he's probably already said it before somewhere...

Eric
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