Convince me

[AndiS]

I would recommend ...

...
As an average train simmer who was not caught in the release hype, you are certainly better off if you wait for a month.
...

Vern's not an average trainsimmer. He was involved when others were in short trousers. What a slap in the face?

Sorry, no slap nowhere in scene.

Vern made his recommendation to what I dare calling the average train simmer. I referred to such people, and I think being an average train simmer is not a bad thing.

Vern made clear that he owns a copy already, so there would not be a point in suggesting him to wait.

Therefore, no one called him an average train simmer.

Bottom line: Not every post I write insults someone. There are even a few friendly ones among them, plus the odd neutral (maybe even constructive) statement. Bad thing is: I do not colour-code them.

[MartinvK]

And if you love BVE4 (or Zusi2, for that matter), you never were likely to love KRS anyway, it is a different segment of the genre.

The thing is, Andi, we thought we were and the PR from the developer did nothing to dispel the myth (though silence on matters such as superelevation should have triggered warning bells).

I'm as guilty as anyone else in the community of hyping the thing up in my own mind and maybe it is the case we convinced ourselves we were getting something that combined the best of all the other train sims, the experience of the developer and the input of the SME's that Kuju had supposedly gathered to help with the technical side. They were not starting from scratch with this. It was going to be the King of all the Sims knocking everything else out of its path.

Unfortunately that's not what we received.

I'm still working on a review for my site but it is not proving very easy to write. The game is like a virtual Darth Vader, deep down I want to believe there is some good in there but it's getting past the bad parts.

The above should be must reading for all the sunshine blowers. It couldn't have been easy to write but there comes a point when the rose coloured glasses have to come off and the cold light of reality be shone on the subject.

Now we are already reading about how the Nov 12 release of the dev tools will be the best thing since sliced bread, solve all the world's problems and cure every known disease. OK, slight exaggeration but let us all keep our enthusiasm in check and not go off the deep end.

[clanker88]

Basically I see all the feedback so far as a confirmation for MS's original command that Kuju burn all the documents for MSTS2 amd to kindly leave the building. It's how many years later, and Kuju still haven't learned any lessons.

Will one month REALLY make that much of a difference...?

[fgrsimon]

I'm as guilty as anyone else in the community of hyping the thing up in my own mind and maybe it is the case we convinced ourselves we were getting something that combined the best of all the other train sims, the experience of the developer and the input of the SME's that Kuju had supposedly gathered to help with the technical side. They were not starting from scratch with this. It was going to be the King of all the Sims knocking everything else out of its path.

Unfortunately from a coding point of view they were starting from scratch and therein lies the problem. As it's been reported previously, when MSTS2 was cancelled, Microsoft took all the MSTS1 and MSTS2 code and took legal steps to prevent Kuju from using it. The story I have heard is that Microsoft employees actually turned up at Kuju offices and physically removed everything they could get their hands on including auditing everyone's PC's.

Now if Kuju had been able to use the MSTS1 code as a basis for RS, then I think we would have had the product we all wanted. Imagine MSTS with all the bugs fixed and graphics updated to present day standards!

What worries me is than Microsoft have said that they too are starting totally from scratch for MSTS-X or whatever it ends up being called. I fear therefore we might end up with exactly the same thing there as well.

The problem is that not enough people realise quite how good the basic MSTS engine was, particularly on the Simulation side and if the obviously talented team that worked on that has by now been lost to the Train Sim world, I wonder if we will ever get that close again. Maybe the best hope for Traim Simming is that the MSTS code eventually becomes public domain?

[djt01]

The problem is that not enough people realise quite how good the basic MSTS engine was, particularly on the Simulation side

Really, how good could you consider DirectX 7 graphics and toy train physics to be?

[fgrsimon]

Well DX7 was what was around at the time in 2001, unless they were clairvoyant I don't see how they could have done better!

Toy train physics???? - Have you ever come across the work done by 'Supergoods' or 'Crick14a' on UKTS with Steam Locomotives or Bob Boudoin on train-sim.com with US Diesels? With their values in the .eng files, the MSTS simulation is pretty damn fine for a Simulation Game. Granted it's not going to be as good as a Professional Simulator but they cost 100's of 1000's of pounds, MSTS cost £50.00.

I know there's more than a few real world drivers/firemen who are more than happy with the Simulation side of MSTS these days. That indicates to me that the MSTS engine was a pretty good first stab at the genre.

[djt01]

Well DX7 was what was around at the time in 2001; unless they were clairvoyant I don't see how they could have done better!

Actually there were plenty of graphics engines used in other games that were well beyond what we got in MSTS, even in 2001.

Have you ever come across the work done by 'Supergoods' or 'Crick14a' on UKTS with Steam Locomotives or Bob Boudoin on train-sim.com with US Diesels?

Yes, I’ve sampled Bob Boudoin’s excellent physics modifications. I’m not criticizing the work that has been done by Bob or others, but with the lack of in-train forces it still feels like a game. I’ve run trains in the states for a living so it’s going to be hard for me to get excited about train handling in a consumer train game. This is not to say that the same physics modifications that we’ve seen in MSTS couldn’t be done in KRS.

[eaglefan]

After reading all the good and bad reviews of this new sim and after I found out the news tonight that the north american release is being pushed back from Nov. 13th, 2007 to Jan. 12th, 2008. I believe I am just going to wait and spend my money on the MSTS 2 sim which is scheduled to come out late 2008.

It is very dissapointing to hear what this sim has turned into as I believed it had some great potential and it could in the future if KRS just supports it the right way, But from what I have seen from KRS so far. My opinions of that arent that great.

I personally think this was a rush job to get it out for two reasons. The first reason was to get the christmas sales which will only happen in Europe now and the second reason is that they wanted to get as many sales as possible as they know MSTS 2 is in the works and is planned for sometime in 2008.

Maybe someday, I might get the sim if I find myself a copy on ebay cheap, But to pick it up for $40 here in the states "whenever" it gets released. I think I can spend the $40 on something better somewhere else.

I also believe with this delay in the North American version. KRS is going to realize that it wasnt a smart move to delay it for a after chrsitmas release. I think after christmas, Alot of train simmers in the states will be looking at MSTS 2 and forget all about KRS. I know I will be one of those people.

[AndiS]

Got distracted of that one yesterday ...

And if you love BVE4 (or Zusi2, for that matter), you never were likely to love KRS anyway, it is a different segment of the genre.

The thing is, Andi, we thought we were and the PR from the developer did nothing to dispel the myth (though silence on matters such as superelevation should have triggered warning bells).

THB, these flowers growing in the ballast on one of the wallpapers rang some warning bells in me two years ago. Still, we all loved to believe that they will cater all, the nature lover and the driving simulation enthusiast.

Of course, the marketing made promises, but I told other people already that everyone who rants along the line of "this is not a simulator", that they should live on diet powder ("well tasting, guaranteed no hunger, long term effect on body weight") for a week and meditate on the relation between marketing statements and truth.

At the same time I, too, want to have a great simulator, for sure.

The remark on BVE4 & Zusi was induced by the obvious priority of those programmes. The are weak on the "eye-candy side" and strong on the sim side. Now with KRS doing a lot for the eye-candy side, and capitalism working the way we all know, you are right to start worrying from the outset.

I'm as guilty as anyone else in the community of hyping the thing up in my own mind and maybe it is the case we convinced ourselves we were getting something that combined the best of all the other train sims, the experience of the developer and the input of the SME's that Kuju had supposedly gathered to help with the technical side. They were not starting from scratch with this. It was going to be the King of all the Sims knocking everything else out of its path.

Unfortunately that's not what we received.

I'm still working on a review for my site but it is not proving very easy to write. The game is like a virtual Darth Vader, deep down I want to believe there is some good in there but it's getting past the bad parts.

I already wrote that I am angry customer (marketing lies), upset citizen (dodgy way of enforcing strict commitment to freeware on all of us), and desperate simulation fan (wanting something useful, now).
You added "guilty community member" to that. You are right. I told everyone that the 15 scenarios can only be a misunderstanding, that signalling will be great, that it is impossible from the marketing point of view to have anything not working which worked in MSTS (AI, timetables, sensible exhaust), and now I look like an idiot.


Regarding reuse of MSTS or not, I maintain the view that it is often a good idea to throw away old code, in particular if the original programmer already left the company, and/or if the documentation or bug status is bad. However, they could have easily built on their experience from designing MSTS. Even a third party company will first look at MSTS, Trainz, Train Store, Route Riter, and a few more, make a list of what is good in them and then go ahead.

[bigvern]

Unfortunately from a coding point of view they were starting from scratch and therein lies the problem. As it's been reported previously, when MSTS2 was cancelled, Microsoft took all the MSTS1 and MSTS2 code and took legal steps to prevent Kuju from using it. The story I have heard is that Microsoft employees actually turned up at Kuju offices and physically removed everything they could get their hands on including auditing everyone's PC's.

I've heard various tales re the MS "takeback" of MSTS2 from Kuju over the years but this one has brought a smile to my face. Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bill Gates turns up at Homer's house to close down his Internet site. Of course I pointed out some time ago that buggy rail sims are not the only issues I've had with Kuju software. Their 1999 helicopter simulation - Team Apache - had a bug during auto-hover where the helicopter would spin around the blade rather than the other way round. Different programmers, different programme but perhaps an indication of this company's approach to QA - sloppy.

Even if all the source code for MSTS was removed from the site and naturally couldn't be used anyway, surely to God Kuju sat all their designers and artists down for the first month just playing all the other train sims out there - BVE, Densha, Loksim, Zusi not to mention MSTS & Trainz. If they wanted an idea of UK rail ops they should have even gone back to TD3 and Simudrive. Heck a phone call and I would happily have gone round, set them up and demonstrated for free. And I'm sure, at some point, one of the programmers would have sneaked a look under the hood at how the almost perfect timetable and signal logic in Zusi, or fluid graphics and motion of DDG Final worked.

[jbilton]

, and now I look like an idiot.

Well your Avatar has always looked like a cow to me.

Cheers
Jon

[clanker88]

It's becoming painfully clear to me that train simulator developers in general see their target audience as a mixture of stereotypical spotty anoraks and attic hornby fans, who are easily satisfied by moving trackside sceney, a few sidings and a view from the cab. I don't think there's one who have taken the trouble to properly servey their audience and what it wanta. It's obscene that the product which came closest to giving us what we want was the very first product in the genre: msts1 which came onto the scene blind. KRS, TRAINZ, and probably MSTS2 have had a fully developed community to feed from, but it seems they've totally ignored us.

Train sims, it seems, is just another market to be milked while the going is good, serving us up any old slop which looks a bit pretty, and has a few trains moving aound. It's ionic that this sort of behaviour is called 'riding the gravy train'.

Microsoft only seem to be using their train sim to lever sales of Windows Vista, so it appears they don't take the genre seriously either - and even look to be insulting the IQ of the train-simmer in general.

What we need is an enthusiast to design a real train simulator. Kind of like a Train version of Netkar. Only another rail enthusiast is ever going to produce a proper train simulator.

[AndiS]

Heck a phone call and I would happily have gone round, set them up and demonstrated for free.

There even was a press release about a visit of yours and Matt at their place, giving people the impression that they talk to the people in the know from the start.

I feel anger brewing up again, when I look back at those early promises.

The assumption that something in the general Kuju approach is the problem is certainly true, be it QA or priorities in features. I am very happy about the trees, but without finer terrain grid, I cannot model landscape nicely, thus the segment of the "scenery enthusiasts" is not catered well. And 100% of the people here, and I dare say of all customers worldwide, would trade the birds for correctly set switches.

Well your Avatar has always looked like a cow to me.

A most clever looking cow, may I say.

What we need is an enthusiast to design a real train simulator. Kind of like a Train version of Netkar. Only another rail enthusiast is ever going to produce a proper train simulator.

This guy exists. His name is Carsten Hölscher. His programme is called Zusi. There were already some links to information on this project, unfortunately more in German than in English (which will change at some point). However, he seems to have a job in real life (good for him, bad for us), so he is not progressing too fast -- but then again not much slower than Kuju.

Zusi clearly shows that the field of trains is so big that important feature for one are irrelevant for another one, both being enthusiasts with serious knowledge. Also, it takes a huge effort to create a complete solution, core simulation, editors, routes, rolling stock. And if you are not taking shortcuts, thereby deviating from the ideal, it is an even bigger effort.

[stuartrayner]

the product which came closest to giving us what we want was the very first product in the genre: msts1 which came onto the scene blind

Not quite. There were several train sims on the market before MSTS. They were generally quite basic, and did not all feature cab views, but some of them certainly had legs. I always had a soft spot for Railsim (a german product from the late 90's - nothing to do with KRS) and TD3 (once I got a legal Amiga emulator working). There is an urban myth that Bill Gates got the inspiration for MSTS from a polish sim called Mechanik.

What we need is an enthusiast to design a real train simulator. Kind of like a Train version of Netkar. Only another rail enthusiast is ever going to produce a proper train simulator.

There have been a couple of projects started over the years. There was one called Global Train Simulator - on which I had a bit of a voice, but never got time to contribute any code to. Sadly, nothing really became of it. Sounds like Matt was working on something a while back too from something he mentioned in a post about 3D Engines.

The catch 22 situation is that although the train sim community has some talented programmers and artists, the fact that they generally also have jobs, families and other commitments means that time that can be allocated to that kind of thing is limited to some extent. I suppose I should only speak for myself here though.

[stuartrayner]

This guy exists. His name is Carsten Hölscher. His programme is called Zusi.

Can someone remind me, was Carsten the guy who wrote Railsim (NOT Rail Simulator)?