Dev Tools due on 12 Nov

[nicknackpaddywack]

So there's complaints that the game has been rushed out, and now there's complaints that the tools are not being rushed out...

the game is pretty worthless to some people like me as it is, to be honest i would of prefered both items (RS + Tool pack) being released at the same time.... ie: 12th november

at least we might have a halfway decent game?

[nicknackpaddywack]

....Snip....

Having said all of that I think i could look good in a cloak and dagger outfit.

best regards

Derek

and a trackIR sensor mounted to your head for immense gaming

[johndibben]

You confuse changing the programme code with fixing configuration files. I did not mean the first and it would be very difficult and legally problematic. I only refer to fixing the configuration files (think .eng). It was done successfully in MSTS and it can be done here. Only that I currently focus on signalling, because this is where the problems seem to be biggest. Physics are fine this time (for all we know currently). Signalling is much more promising than in MSTS but the default content must have some bad issues.

Digging through .wag and .eng files, the community arrived at far better train behaviour than in the original content, but it took long. With a bit more support, and with the experience and the current size of the community, it will soon outperform the level of signalling that Kuju implemented. How swift this happens depends on the energy of people and the support from RSD.

I've confused nothing. I was around when MSTS was first released and half-cocked but well-meant efforts were made to do as you say. Many reinstallments were required as a result. MSTS was easy to mess up which is a drawback of open architecture. Yes, people have had experience with MSTS but this isn't MSTS.

Yes, it was done successfully with MSTS .... in the end. To delve into such matters days after release would be madness. The game is playable and so it would make far more sense for people to familiarise themselves with it first as a logical first step. RSD was released as a simulator/game. Are you not using it as such? If so it will take a while as there's four routes and a freeplay option. I can't believe you've mastered the route editor yet. There's plenty to do with what's in the box and there's no point anyone denying it.

I've made no complaints about criticism beyond repetition, politics and 'I told you so'.

I'd ask how you know it's normal to be short of funds at this stage? That's a wild statement without foundation.

Again, I heard it said you're very clever but logic appears to escaped you. I've been there, seen it and bought the T-shirt. I play the fool rather than set myself up as an expert in anything but in this case you're 'teaching granny how to suck eggs' and all but the impatient and those who don't want KRS to succeed would not suggest that which you are suggesting or make such claims without a shred of evidence to support it. 28 pages of waffle about IGA is a testament to that. It's been one thing after another and amazed you've got away with it. If it were TMTS or MSTS2 you would not have done. People use people in this game unless you'd not noticed.

[johndibben]

John,

I honestly dont give a damn anymore, it'll be what will be and l'm pretty sure cottage industies will be screwed, theres nothing that can be said here anymore on this issue that wouldnt become liablous or close too. The issue is closed, we'll never get to the bottom of it, its too muddy and to be frank...whats the point, one person will be right and one wrong, l hope its me, l can take it on the chin, l'm expendable, others might not be.

I dont care if the game fails or wins, if content can or cannot be created, l wanted so much to contribute to KRS as the game engine looks great, but l have deep seated reservations about many things, thats my problem and issue and l'll take it elsewhere.

l've packed away all the high level train sim stuff with a "do not open before TSx appears", l will probably finish the Warship for MSTS1 as it involves others whos efforts and skills I appreciate.

Y'all have fun with the new game and l hope it gets sorted so that many others here can rest there fears and reservations.

Thanks for all the fish

kindest

Michael

We've been here before, Michael. You can create models I could only dream of making without years of practice. I respect that. I respect all modellers to the degree of their output seperately from themselves as I know few very well. It's the 'talkers' and 'admin' that have always annoyed me. They're political and that's the game for them. I can appreciate that payware is a step up and freeware a step down in stature although not quality. As such, your work has great value.

Wouldn't want to see you sued although I've never known anyone to actually sue. It's all bluff. That said it's not worth the hassle.

If KRS is successful then I hope you can be part of it as you've remained consistant even if we've not agreed.

Your Warship looks a bloody sight better than mine in any event

[salopiangrowler]

Giveit 12 months lads, 12 months it'll be the best thing since sliced bread. Then MSTS2 will come out

[AndiS]

Yes, it was done successfully with MSTS .... in the end. To delve into such matters days after release would be madness.

I guess (because I was not there), that the MSTS community grew slowly in the beginning. Therefore, it took longer to fix things. Also, MSTS was the first programme of its kind. There are many parallels between MSTS and KRS on which you can build (in a positive way!).

Just look into the physics forum and see how people already open up their books to compare the data from KRS to prototype information. In your words, the madness has already begun.

The game is playable and so it would make far more sense for people to familiarise themselves with it first as a logical first step. RSD was released as a simulator/game. Are you not using it as such? If so it will take a while as there's four routes and a freeplay option. I can't believe you've mastered the route editor yet. There's plenty to do with what's in the box and there's no point anyone denying it.

Of course, everyone could go underground and do something with himself. The only problem is that it is more egoistic than helping others, by forwarding information, or by fixing problems. Therefore, I would prefer to fix some problems, but of course, I could just busy myself with anything.

I've made no complaints about criticism beyond repetition, politics and 'I told you so'.

I did not aim that at you. At no one btw., I find moaning about moaning ok, as long as it does not take more space than the original moaning, which is certainly not the case. I just meant to say that moaning is not as productive as providing fixes.

I'd ask how you know it's normal to be short of funds at this stage? That's a wild statement without foundation.

According to Kuju's press releases, they did not sell the rights on KRS to EA. Therefore, EA will not hand over a big bag of money now. Instead, Kuju or RSD will receive bigger shares from the sales than usual for game developers. So it is a good thing in the long run. At the same time, it is clear that they invested a lot of money into the development. So how should they have a lot of money now? It is only logical that when you leave the supermarket after the weekend shopping, your purse will be rather empty and your shopping bags will be full. If I make such an observation, it is neither wild nor abusive.

Again, I heard it said you're very clever but logic appears to escaped you. I've been there, seen it and bought the T-shirt. I play the fool rather than set myself up as an expert in anything but in this case you're 'teaching granny how to suck eggs' and all but the impatient and those who don't want KRS to succeed would not suggest that which you are suggesting or make such claims without a shred of evidence to support it.

Yes, I love the feeling when the logic escapes me. It is a relief. Problem is, it builds up periodically, giving me a headache, until the pressure is relieved.

However, I was not teaching to grannies, I just shared the observation with many people that Kuju had some communication issues between their Subject Matter Experts (and external experts) and those who implemented the product. Just look at the Signalling thread to see several people making their observations without being influenced by me.

28 pages of waffle about IGA is a testament to that. It's been one thing after another and amazed you've got away with it.

Not sure what the problem is with the IGA thread. There was something in the air which proved to be true, I made few posts in that thread, and if you go back you will see that I was pretty alone in my positive response to Sabrinas announcement about limited IGA.

If it were TMTS or MSTS2 you would not have done. People use people in this game unless you'd not noticed.

First there was little known about TMTS and then it was cancelled. I remember criticizing this "on hold" wording.

MSTS2 receives the same constructive input as KRS, plus some clear words about things I do not like, whenever they erupt. However, little is known currently, so not much can be said either way. Just like for KRS a year ago.

[stewart]

Your Warship looks a bloody sight better than mine in any event

Yeah John but your Post Office Morris van is still the dogs watsits

[johndibben]

Of course, everyone could go underground and do something with himself. The only problem is that it is more egoistic than helping others, by forwarding information, or by fixing problems. Therefore, I would prefer to fix some problems, but of course, I could just busy myself with anything.

Better underground and familiarising ourselves with that which we have than overground three days after release pointing out anything other than errors to be fixed by RSD.

That's not simply logic, it's common sense. It's not our sim. It belongs to RDS. We simply own the right to use it. Always keep that thought prominantly in our minds and all may be well in 12 months. Behaving like a dog which won't let go of a rag doll and shaking it to bits will serve no one. That's an self-harming obsession. I can recognise that as well and know when it's time to let go.

[johndibben]

Yeah John but your Post Office Morris van is still the dogs watsits

Don't remind me. I'd forgotten about that. Last thing I ever made back in 1807.

Feels like it anyway

[jamespetts]

The reference to the development tools being for "experts" is of some concern, since it is not clear just how user-friendly that these tools will be. It is, of course, far easier to write rough-at-the-edges tools that are difficult for all but experts to use than it is to write highly polished, smooth tools that even novices can use easily (which are also easier for experts to use). It all lies in interface and automation: the interface must be self-explanatory, and all of the number-crunching, drugerous tasks that are difficult for humans to do must be automated, even if this requires complex coding.

For example, to create timetabled scenarios, one must create timetables. However, creating a realistic railway timetable is a monumentally difficult task: it takes an enormous amount of effort for real-life railway timetables to be made by teams of skilled professionals, most of whom probably have degrees in mathematics. Although a timetable for a Rail Simulator route would be easier than one for an entire national railway network, it is still extremely painful to have to crunch numbers to work out when each timing point should be for each train over the course of the day such that the trains can arrive on time, not sit idle for a long time, and not conflict with each others' paths. Some way of automating this (creating a timetable from a diagram and automatically detecting and dealing with clashes) is essential if it is going to be anything other than too painstaking to bother with for users to create timetabled scenarios.

What we need are powerful tools: one can edit every pixel of any photograph in Microsoft Paint, but it is practically impossible to do advanced things to photographs without something like Photoshop that uses sophisticated algorithms to automate the number-crunching. The same applies to the development tools: everything that can be computer automated needs to be for the tools to be viable.

[Jacko]

And the even more good news is that Railsim is going to provide support for TrackIR soon too!

Really?! Where did you see that Stewart?
I have one for FSX and must admit it's excellent.

From A pm I had from Derek

.........And yes, we do plan on implementing Trackir, infact the code is practically there as with Rail Driver.

best regards

Derek

I got a similar confirmation that TrackIR was on RS's 'To-Do' list, from Adam, over on the RS forums. http://www.railsimulator.com/node/173 - thus it would appear that this item, at least, has two people at RS singing from the same hymn-sheet! S'pose they could both be 'left hands' tho, and the 'right hands' elsewhere in the organisation are completely at odds - but I very much doubt it (and hope not!)

[mickoo737]

We have, and last time l took all my toys away , but last time was driven by external pressures, this time its all internal l assure you.....and the toys stay, please be assured of that.

I agree with everything else except, the step up and step down logic, l most certainly do not hold that belief, pay or free both hold the same stature in my books, indeed many modellers here do both and l'm sure they dont wear two hats depending on whether its pay or free, l'd hate any one to think l was cutting corners on my freeware FDB locos, it certainly wasnt the case, nor was it intended.

Kindest

Michael

We've been here before, Michael. You can create models I could only dream of making without years of practice. I respect that. I respect all modellers to the degree of their output seperately from themselves as I know few very well. It's the 'talkers' and 'admin' that have always annoyed me. They're political and that's the game for them. I can appreciate that payware is a step up and freeware a step down in stature although not quality. As such, your work has great value.

Wouldn't want to see you sued although I've never known anyone to actually sue. It's all bluff. That said it's not worth the hassle.

If KRS is successful then I hope you can be part of it as you've remained consistant even if we've not agreed.

Your Warship looks a bloody sight better than mine in any event

[AndiS]

It's not our sim. It belongs to RDS. We simply own the right to use it. Always keep that thought prominantly in our minds and all may be well in 12 months. Behaving like a dog which won't let go of a rag doll and shaking it to bits will serve no one. That's an self-harming obsession.

There are some good point here, with a few buts.

First, you are right, it is their right to steer the future of their product as they like. We have the right to use, so we have the right to demand that we can use it as it says on the box.

Secondly, it is a dangerous concept to say "it is just their sim". When it comes to supporting or dropping it, it is all our sim. We could, of course, all drop the rag dog and play with something else, but it would hurt RSD economically, so I cannot see how that is a good suggestion for anyone. It is good for those worried about their public image or about self-harming, though.

All I said in my first post is that it is a slap in the face of those who want it to make it "our" sim. Not legally, but in terms of shared effort. However, if they force us out, all I can do is wish them luck. They will need it. Of course, they do not force us out permanently, they just tell us to wait -- now. But how naive must one be to believe that the tools will be of a different quality than the core product. This means they will need someone to fix them, be it by correcting configuration files or by filling gaps in the documentation. Of course, you will tell me that I should just lean back and let go of my rag doll. It is just that abandoned rag dolls are such a sad sight.

[1975Supra]

Derek
Would it be a good idea to release the Dev Tools as a BETA to allow developers to start using the tools and notifying you and the team if any niggles are found prior to 12th November?
Anyone using the Beta would have to (as part of the agreement) say that, yes, they know the software is Beta and therefore the RSDT accept no responsability etc etc. ie you can build some routes but the BETA is for testing purposes so don't blame us if you loose a months work on a route!

Just an idea.

Cheers
Dave

[jbilton]

Derek
Would it be a good idea to release the Dev Tools as a BETA to allow developers to start using the tools and notifying you and the team if any niggles are found prior to 12th November?
Anyone using the Beta would have to (as part of the agreement) say that, yes, they know the software is Beta and therefore the RSDT accept no responsability etc etc. ie you can build some routes but the BETA is for testing purposes so don't blame us if you loose a months work on a route!

Just an idea.

Cheers
Dave

Actually I get the idea the tools have been around for a while.
Cheers
Jon