Had enough

General discussion about Rail Simulator that doesn't really fit in to any specific category. A good place to start if you're not sure what category it should fit in to as well.

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mickoo737
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Re:

Post by mickoo737 »

johndibben wrote: No one is indispensible and any gap will be filled. There's people buying KRS as others bought MSTS and Trainz. Possible new blood.
Correct, new blood is essential to all hobbies, some will fall by the way side, others will make it through, time will tell if theres enough to sustain interest.
johndibben wrote: Suspect most can make up their own minds and those who would seek to influence others are punching above their weight these days.
Ouch, didnt mean to hit anyone, more like flailing arms in dispair :)
johndibben wrote: I'm off to heave the KRS DVD into the computer risking a hernia and see what I can find.
Carefull, those DVDs are awfully heavy :).
johndibben wrote: It's all a laugh really at the end of the day :)
Sadly, usually at some one elses expense.

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Michael
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

MartinH wrote:Sadly, I don't think you will find "the gap" being filled, at least not nearly enough to create the content that we've become used to in MSTS. Speaking to some of the artists who have already made rolling stock for Rail Simulator, it is nowhere near as quick and easy as it was for MSTS, not if you want to take advantage of the superior graphics in the new sim, and I hate to imagine the effort required to make a cab.
I'd assumed that all along which is why I said most third-party content would probably be payware. I wouldn't even atttempt to build anything for KRS. Route building won't be easier. The promise of MSTS2 being better is simply that. It could be simpler to build for which suggests simpler models. It could be easier to build routes for but who knows? It will almost certainly have the support of existing MSTS add-on creators.

Trainz has only recently, by MSTS standards, built up a third-party commercial creation base and I've assumed that's because Trainz enables more advanced techniques. Only one MSTS commercial creator has used used both sims to my knowledge with those who built The West Somerset Railway. There's new content creators here who could be fillling the gap at the moment. The focus at the moment is upon existing MSTS commercial groups. With two sims and an expanding market I could envisage new commercial groups appearing or people moving from Trainz. It would be a brave man who would predict the situation in 12 months time. We're in uncharted territory but people follow success and believe KRS has enough to build upon. It's up against MS which is clearly preferred here. That's the old world though with MS who didn't encourage creators and abandoned them. This is 2007 and nothing is certain which is exciting :)
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John
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Re: Had enough

Post by mickoo737 »

TSx will not be easier to build for, it'll be as hard as KRS, it has the capability ( if one follows the FSx lineage ) to offer very complex models with bloom effects, specular layers and bump mapping, anyone building for FSx these days knows full well how complex TSx models could become.

Like KRS they will look exceedingly good ( Mr Kipling ), but exceedingly hard to build and sustain.

Best

Michael
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Re: Had enough

Post by david1 »

I recieved my copy of Rail Sim today, I have been looking forward to it since i read the write ups for it a couple of weeks ago. it sounded brill shame as i have only just got west coast for MSTS and it sounded like it would be saying goodnight.
Tryed out a few activities first the Paddington to Oxford with HST routes is very detailed as I had expected in the the reviews, but I would expect that sort of quaility as this is a new sim and Making Tracks Great Eastern have set the Standard in quaility. But alas apart from the great scenary detail Rail Simulator is lacking, the cabs for 47 and Deltic are terrible it is like sitting inside a cardboard box with drawn guages, have EA not heard of Photograghic layouts that give the feel of a real cab, it is after all a simulator it feels more like a game. The sound for the class 47 is just pants.

I think I will be sticking with MSTS it may be 6 years old but it can still out do RS, if the standard of Great Eastern can be achivied on an old sim then there is something lacking in RS as it does not compare with that. If I am going to find a better sim I`ll just wait for TS2 just a same it will only work under Vista which I said I would not put on my desktop PC as that is pants as well, i`ll duel boot my PC Vista just for TS2.

If anyone has not bought RS, keep hold of your money until several patches have been released, then it may be half as good as MSTS
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boleyd
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Re: Had enough

Post by boleyd »

Thanks to all in the UK and Europe for reviewing and debugging RS. The tactical marketing plan worked well No sense in releasing to the larger market when there is another market available for Beta testing.

Seriously:
While only a month into MSTS I appreciate the info on RS. While some argue that MSTS had its warts the comparison is quite flawed. After several years Kuju/EA/? knew what the potential customer base expected. To release a product with any major flaws is __________! Yes, there will be some coding errors to be sorted out. So a bridge may be missing, some signals may be backwards, or a siding may be left out. However, given many years of market feedback there is no excuse for any major flaws.

Now we hear rumors of political issues within EA and Kuju. These could be just be that and started by an irate customer. The rapidity of fixes will either dispel or confirm these rumors. Or, if you see a glowing press release about a new group running the show, beware.

Regarding FSX and MSTSX - forget about all of the fancy shadows and glinting sunlight. That is of little interest unless you are into model airplanes or model trains and counting rivets. Since the FSX graphics program will only have to display a restricted area (not from 5000ft) you should see good performance. You should also see good addons. While FSX is unduly complex most of the mysteries have been solved. The FSX development team has been forth-coming with helpful suggestions and supplementary info. Some of the addon developers may actually be able to adapt their programs to MSTSX. If so, the simulator will quickly mature.

Microsoft does not like to fail. The original MSTS was somewhat of a black eye. I suspect that MSTSX staffing and funding should be appropriate. Support will be via SDKs and ad-hoc from the development team and their blogs. It will work out-of-the-box but will have flaws. How serious they will be is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly MSTSX is hanging over RS and the fact that they released a product that allegedly has serious shortcomings means that they needed at least one Christmas season to themselves to recoup their costs. Another 30 days might have avoided these issues but at some point the marketing department rules.

Dick
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Re: Had enough

Post by OZINOZ »

To be honest, I don't know whether I have had enough or not :-? Being way down in the Colonies, it hasn't been released, nor is there any indication as to if it even will be, so it means an import. That in itself is not an issue, given the strong A$ and the fact that Matt now has it in stock.

My concern is that it is being sold "in-complete" it just can not be used as advertised out of the box. I can live with this, but the issue is having to download via the net without a useable internet connection at home. I can download the odd file to an external drive at the office, but if the program checks dependencies or serial numbers etc as part of the download, well, I am in trouble as obviously it is not installed on my office pc. I am just hoping that downloads, be it additional content, routes or the vaunted tools are just stand alone with installation exe's.

Thinking of holding off till after the tool & US releases before making a final decision on buying; just very disappointed at the moment...

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Re: Had enough

Post by superheatedsteam »

I have ordered my copy and will work around any bugs in the program just like I have to in MSTS.

I well remember last time I had to reinstall MSTS on my new hard drive. I then had to install the MSTS 1.2 patch. Then had to install the Bin Patch. Then add the xtracks and new roads add-on packages. Manually modify the sound configuration file. Replace the default sounds with community developed enhanced sounds. Replace the default cabs with community developed enhanced cabs. Then I could start reloading the vastly superior (over default) rolling stock and routes developed by the MSTS content creators.

Then I have the pleasure [sic] of working in the Route Editor which is a class piece of software if I ever saw any. Need to make up a consist in MSTS with 208 ore cars, well there’s an evenings entertainment for you. MSTS is pants! and only the addition of 3rd party (and the ability to make my own) content that has ensured it has stayed on my hard drive.

We all have our own ‘idea’ what a Train/Rail Simulator should be. Me personally? I’m looking for physics fidelity as I want to ‘simulate’ the train driving experience. I care not for moving blades of grass, how far my loco passes a signal before it changes condition or if the head rest covers in 1st class are the correct colour.

All I want is a base simulator that is configurable, extendable and upgradeable. I believe RS has those three qualities and Derek and Adam from RS have indicated that they are committed to ongoing support and development of this product. It’s in their interest that this works but it is so much more in my interest that this works.

What I am looking forward to especially with this product is the direct feedback we as a community can get from the developers. Try and find a global ‘consensus’ on the brake or steam parameters for MSTS and good luck to you. With ongoing support from the RS developers the physics, signal, modelling, activity, route building, etc experts in our community can contact the developers for an insight into what the code is doing and why. If bugs or logic anomalies are found these can the corrected and the software product evolves and improves over time.

I work in the software development industry and have had a long term involvement with software that has evolved (and improved) over time. We listen to our clients, we provide regular updates to resolve serious bugs. We don’t fulfil all out clients wishes nor could we. Some requests are not feasible to implement and some are just plain obscure.

We test our software before release but sometimes bugs do slip through. These we fix with subsequent updates. The clients we like are the ones that report bugs to us by providing precise details of what the issues are and where they are occurring. The ones that do us (or themselves) no favours are the ones that scream and shout that the sky is falling and demand things NOW or they are leaving! We let them go. They don’t have many other places to go to and overall the other options are less attractive on a number of levels. Our software is not perfect (no software is) but our software is very good at what it does for the price that the client pays. I find this is very much the case for retail pc based train simulators as well.
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lateagain
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Re: Had enough

Post by lateagain »

mickoo737 wrote:If MS had a game plan then the five year wait between train sims is probably too long, but the every two years flight sim production is killing developers and you just dont have time to catch up and learn whats new and explore it before its down tools and relearn it all again, three years would be better, after three years most people are ready to move on but two ?, just a little too soon IMHO.

Theres talk now already of FSxi and some l know who are struggling with FSx are thinking of leap frogging FSx, carrying on with FS9 modeling and then jumping full scale into FSxi, the same will apply here, many will look at KRs and figure to bypass it, go back to MSTS1 ( which many have already advocated pre release....and many are doing post release )
IMHO this hits the nail right on the head.

Lets not forget that the reason so much 3rd party development, 3rd party utilities and the Bin patch could not have happened had MSTS1 been as short lived as some of the flight sims.

Working on MEP has been an illuminating retrospective on MSTS. Searching for specifics of stock I've been amazed at the difference in quality of early models and newer ones. Some early models were way ahead of their time, but many, as their authors would readily admit, seem awful against what the community has taught itself to produce in the subsequent years.

When you consider that most development is done in peoples spare time you have to be pretty dedicated to get to know enough about the sim (i.e. play it) and get your head around tools, 3D modelling packages, paint programmes etc. In todays "instant gratification" world most loose sight of the effort required in actually producing stuff and developing and improving it.

If MSTS had been replaced when the ORIGINAL MSTS2 was due out there would be a huge amount of excellent models, routes and utilities that would never have reached current levels of develpoment or standards of finish. Download the complete file listing from the front page and sort the models by date. Delete everything since the original MSTS2 release date and see what you'd have been left with. :-? ....and that's before you look at some of the excellent commercial work since that date and which of course is still in development for MSTS.

Someone mentioned MS Office. Well that developed progressively with new bells and whistle added at each upgrade and when they'd got it just about right they released the latest Office and confused the heck out of 75% of users. Smart move!!!

Sims are TOO dependent on 3rd party add-ons to be chasing the latest graphics and hardware. If you want a Rail Driving Game I'm sure someone will oblige but it won't be a sim.

Geoff
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

So MSTS2 (the first one) would've been bad?!

MSTS1 hacks through MS abandoning it's own product are preferable?!

MSTS2 (the first one) wouldn't have built upon the success of MSTS?!

Assuming MSTS2 is released in 2008, 7 years between sims is good?!

Those who've slogged their guts out to keep MSTS going should be expected to do it again and again?!

Yes, sims are getting more complicated but I suggest too complicated for some to keep up which won't cut much ice with customers.

To slightly misquote a link I was sent recently concerning Trainz, 'The Railway Children are about to hit puberty'.
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John
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Re:

Post by jbilton »

johndibben wrote:
To slightly misquote a link I was sent recently concerning Trainz, 'The Railway Children are about to hit puberty'.
You're on about Miss Agutter again. :o 8)


http://www.tmaw.co.uk/jennya.html

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Jon
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lateagain
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Re:

Post by lateagain »

johndibben wrote:So MSTS2 (the first one) would've been bad?!

MSTS1 hacks through MS abandoning it's own product are preferable?!

MSTS2 (the first one) wouldn't have built upon the success of MSTS?!
First point....we'll never know
Second Point....if you mean do I think it was OK for MS to leave it to others to fix????....well as it turns out six years down the line....Yes maybe. Creativity comes from adversity....not being spoon fed.
Third point....As I understood it there would have been little or no compatibility?....if that's right No it wouldn't and if I'm wrong it's still only maybe for the points that Mickoo has spelled out.
johndibben wrote:Assuming MSTS2 is released in 2008, 7 years between sims is good?!
Ever travel by bus John? You're always delighted that one turns up EVENTUALLY :lol:
johndibben wrote:Those who've slogged their guts out to keep MSTS going should be expected to do it again and again?!
OH COME OFF IT! I't a hobby. We love it. We live for it. ...........You can always go and play golf :lol: :lol:
johndibben wrote:Yes, sims are getting more complicated but I suggest too complicated for some to keep up which won't cut much ice with customers.

To slightly misquote a link I was sent recently concerning Trainz, 'The Railway Children are about to hit puberty'.
All the more reason that Mickoo's point about not having a new one every year is right. I know modellers get irritated by criticism and "gimme" attitudes but you don't sit down to master 3D software unless you want to. Learning any software is a steep learning curve. Mastering techniques is a slower and longer one. It's a great shame that Trainz and MSTS have existed in such isolation. The fact that it has is obviously due to limitations in folks ability to have time to create for or play with both?

Geoff
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

lateagain wrote:Second Point....if you mean do I think it was OK for MS to leave it to others to fix????....well as it turns out six years down the line....Yes maybe. Creativity comes from adversity....not being spoon fed.
But not KRS? :)

Trainz get's away with new editions, it is difficult to keep up but people do and there's the income which that generates to take into account. Swings and roundabouts.

Many don't sound like they love the diminishing returns from an old sim. Always said this is a hobby for masochists though :)

I'm off for a fantasy about Miss Agetter :P
Cheers

John
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Re: Had enough

Post by nestfilms »

MartinH wrote:
with anyone able to upload their own routes (even using default content) without restrictions (so long as it was freeware).
Not so.
Default content was never allowed to be uploaded, remember those little batch files we had to run and to make sure all six routes were installed so it could copy default items across?
Routes that used the default items were of course allowed as long as the content itself wasn't distributed and the same goes for RS. You can use the default content so long as its not uploaded with the route.
Since the FSX graphics program will only have to display a restricted area (not from 5000ft) you should see good performance.
This has been mentioned before. Two things
1) The FSX game engine was designed for flight sims NOT train sims which have a completly different graphic requiremnt to flight sims.... by a few thousand feet. which leads to
2) Although the FSX game engine in MSTS2 won't have to cover as wider area, the difference in the amount of detail in that smaller area will be magnified ten fold
i don't see many individual weeds or bushes or people or anything that is as fine detailed to what we are used in train simsin FSX with the exception of an airfield, an area which is a lot smaller than what a train sim is going to have to cope with plus its pretty much static.
terrain and detailed graphic will actually have to be refreshed and updated more often in MSTS2 than in FSX.

Going back a few posts someone mentioned that its going to take longer to build models, cabs and scenarios due to much more work involved to take advantage of the new features.
Well surely if MSTS2 is going to be the bees knees this will be exactly the same as it too will be much more highly detailed than MSTS 1
this all leads to all what people really want is MSTS with better graphics, pro signalling and more accuratly controlled AI plus loads of other fancy features.

I can't understand why everyone is so sure MSTS2 Is going to be the one? Perhaps it fear of moving away from an MSTS? i seem to recall most people were routing for TMTS for the sole reason it was going to be backwards compatable, its now on hold and MSTS2 is not here yet so know one knows what its going to be like.
Infact the only one that has arrived is the one you have all been so negative about
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johndibben
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Post by johndibben »

Excellent post and what I've been saying for years but put very succinctly.

I was looking forward to reading answers today but there's been none in 12 hours.

There must be an answer to this blantent apparent contradiction in attitudes.

Of course, KRS has been released which makes all the difference as hope has been replaced by reality and this is a virtual world in more ways than one :) I'm none too sure there's the belief in any promises made which tends to push people back to MSTS which is secure. Expectations in KRS appeared far higher than appeared on the forums when it could be ordered or bought off the shelves. Many are clearly disappointed now though and the focus will turn upon MSTS2 and possibly TMTS as maintaining hope maintains the hobby. Delivery is always the problem. So much is expected for £35, I can't see anyone delivering that with only a few bugs at a profit which is a strenth of MS as it could afford to lose money to combat a competitor.
Cheers

John
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Re: Had enough

Post by desiro5 »

I'm going to sound like a right hypocrit saying this after i created the "what a great game" thread, but my opinions are alowed to change over time.

I'm agreeing with richard now, this game really is boring now and i enjoy msts more.

I'm going back to msts.
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