Atomic Systems

That may well be the case john, but i don't think there is any reason to suspect that ms would not act in a similar manor to what it has done for flightsim. After all there is little competition in that industry, ms holds a monopoly on that market and activly encourages developers, and freeware creators because they know thats what gives there sim the edge, thats what feeds their monopoly and contnued success and i dont think their new train sim will be any different. They know how to work the comunity and how not to.... they know what there sims need to do and needs to facilitate in order to be a comercial and on going success and its all in giving the comunity a fairly free riane (sp) on modifying and adding to the product, if they plan to make msts a success (and it appear so) then i cant see this being different from the way they treat the flight sim communities.

Perhaps the real question is, having worked in this environment and and i guess, effectivly under microsofts stewardship, why Kuju learned nothing from this. I cant agree more with the poster that talks about missing stations and missing speed limits, that sums it up totally, the interface is horrible, when in msts, as basic as it was, it did the job well and gave most if not all the information you needed in a clear uncomplicated manor where and when you wanted it, rail simulator does not even include some of this information and you have to faf about in a menu system or with icons to find the rest, when controling (with the inadequate info) a steam engine, or travelling at more than a mile a minute its to fidly and you cant get the information you want fast enough. your supposed to take something forwards not back, its elimentory mistakes like this which make you question whether Kuju learned anything from ms.

edit: Nicola your spot on

andrewscott wrote:That may well be the case john, but i don't think there is any reason to suspect that ms would not act in a similar manor to what it has done for flightsim.

Not if MS is given the benefit of the doubt. However it didn't do so with MSTS1 and failed to deliver MSTS2 after we were assured they would. The PC Game market is also now a shadow of that in 2001. All I could find in Game was one copy of IL-Sturmovic. If KRS was perfect I doubt they'd sell many more copies. I wish it wern't so as I'm not into console games but the evidence is there for all to see.

We complain there's no news from MS and it's accepted but not Kuju. There's a few screenshots and a video each time EA made an announcement. There's none this time as KRS is being portrayed as poor.

I'd not base my faith in MSTS2 given the facts although others may do so.

It's too simple to say a game engine fits all. There's more to it than that. Anyone really in the know could confirm that. Others repeat what they're told or what they want to believe.

Most third-party content providers have little or no knowledge of such matters. It's a bluff.

Grieves me to see such comments which is why I post but I never expected either to be released and so content with KRS but admit that it's rushed and incomplete.

I would not put too much money on MS. I don't know them as a company which delivers in time. Granted, they have good ways in ensuring that the core functionality really works in later versions of the product. Call me a happy MS Office user.

However, for the niche market of train simming, we have no information (other than that in 2004 they did not deign us of a new sim).

Especially in case KRS really fails (it is a bit early to proclaim that), we are back to the one-horse race, why should MS put money into perfection then?

On the other hand, I have to acknowledge that in the field of flight sim, where they don't face much (if any) competition, they continued to further develop their product.

One big psychological problem I have is this constant hoping for what is not there - TMTS, KRS, MSTS2 - what will we hope for in 2009? Why can't a single company deliver one train sim product in a satisfactory way?

MS isnt all soft lights and cuddly toys, its easy to forget that MSTS1 required a patch, FS9 required a patch, FSx required two, the second coming with Acceleration if you buy it, or for free if you wait a few more weeks post Acceleration release, so MS dont always get it right...out of the box.

What MS generally do right is develope on what went before and leave it very open for end users to tinker with right out of the box, they do give you a very good foundation to build on and reasonable to excellent ( depending on your level of interest and skill ) tools, the SDK tools were slightly delayed for FSx l believe, or at least the full set were, but it wasnt many days before users could collect the SDKs for 'all' aspects of the game from plane models to scenery and activites with out any form of registration or hurdles to jump.

There is no proof that MS will follow past history with TSx, none what so ever, they may choose to begin to restrict there source or modability, however.....and you can bet there reading most or all of this....they can see that the current stance by Kuju is perhaps not the best way to go.

l'll be honest, l thought people would be upset at KRS, l'll also be equally honest and say that even I....probably one of the largest doubters of KRS....have found the huge list of negative responses rather alarming.

I think Johns right, KRS will have its following and yes those that join ship and develope for it will be king amoungst the blind, but it looks that it could have been so much more, people will forgive the poor sound edits, models not quite so and accept a good base if they can fiddle with it, right now you cant and l'll wager that even with the tool release its not going to be a bed of roses for many.

Best

Michael

petermakosch wrote:Give it a chance, it is still new.

I lost it when I was stuck at the middle station on the Oxford route (the HST activity) as the doors were open but then I couldnt gte back to inside the cab. Time seemed to have stopped and then when I clicked maybe the 7 button, it sent me to the 2D map! My computer pretty much froze and the keyboard stopped responding. After bashing of more keys, I was back in the number 2 view, so a fequent hitting of number 1 and I was back in the cab.

Don't like it as there is no advance warning of speed limits or even stations (twice i ran past the station!)
Don't like it that the outside view has the map co-ords at the top - why?!
Don't like it that pressing ESC does nothing, it should ask me if i want to quit.

But it is still a new sim. I remember (just) how I was with MSTS. I had a good time attempting to move a steam engine! This is just the same, it will take time to change our default habits. I would say I am lucky though as I haven't played on MSTS for maybe 8 months or so, so I have somewhat forgotten the keys anyway. I will just keep playing and having a go - no matter how much it annoys you, keep trying

Peter

To be fair, there is an advance warning of stations which you need to stop at, if you click the second-from left tab in the F3 window. It tells you in tenths of a mile how far the next stop is. Having that large window up just to tell you that is crazy though. The lack of a track-monitor to notify well in advance of upcoming speed-limits is unforgiveable however. That to me makes it almost unplayable as spending time trying the route in each direction (and path) to note down where every speed limit changes is not something I have time for.

I'd agree that pressing ESC should bring up a 'do you want to exit/save the activity' type box, rather than doing nothing, or better still drop you back to the main-menu where you can adjust options and then return to the game, like in almost every other game released in the last few years.

A compass would be better than longitude and latitude co-ords as the default in outside views. At least it would help give some sense to where you are heading.

Whoever thought swapping the A and D keys around from MSTS deserves to be shot. I can live with it, but having to re-adjust each time I switch from MSTS and RS is unnecessary, especially as MSTS had the more intuitive control keys.

The game has only been out for a few days! Patience is a virtue

would people please stop with these useless comparisons between KRS and MSTS? msts as we know it today was developed by thousands of people...KRS only be a few dozen.
of course we can expect KRS to be a lot better than MSTS and if you compare both out of the box then KRS is miles ahead.
i also don't understand why MS's support is praised in such a manner, lots of bugs in MSTS were never fixed. meanwhile there is already a list of bugs to be fixed and details to add on the KRS website, while it isn't even released in most markets.
and just because MS plans to use their flightsim engine for MSTS2 doesn't mean it will be awesome...or even work at all. there is no physics engine in any sim that is capable of doing everything and for a train sim you need completely different rules than for a flightsim or a racingsim.

Ryosuke wrote:would people please stop with these useless comparisons between KRS and MSTS? msts as we know it today was developed by thousands of people...KRS only be a few dozen.
of course we can expect KRS to be a lot better than MSTS and if you compare both out of the box then KRS is miles ahead.
i also don't understand why MS's support is praised in such a manner, lots of bugs in MSTS were never fixed. meanwhile there is already a list of bugs to be fixed and details to add on the KRS website, while it isn't even released in most markets.
and just because MS plans to use their flightsim engine for MSTS2 doesn't mean it will be awesome...or even work at all. there is no physics engine in any sim that is capable of doing everything and for a train sim you need completely different rules than for a flightsim or a racingsim.

The problem with RS is that as far as it being a viable game, MSTS is better because it is accessible by the wider community of gamers thanks to tutorials and easy activities, whereas EARS assumes you are a serious rail-driver from the moment you buy it. In that respect, far from KRS being miles ahead, I'd actually say it is miles behind because it is inaccessible to average people who buy it expecting an easy to play game. They'd be better off with MSTS because it introduces newcomers to the simulation and teaches them how to play it.

I'd imagine MSTS2 will follow a similar example-- it won't be a rushed project like KRS because they won't be short of money (MS will provide adequate funding to completion, unlike Kuju had to rely on what amounted to dodgy outside loans).

The FS X engine is probably highly adaptable and can likely be "zoomed in" so as to provide the higher detail a rail-sim needs over a smaller area.

Ryosuke wrote:would people please stop with these useless comparisons between KRS and MSTS? msts as we know it today was developed by thousands of people...KRS only be a few dozen.
of course we can expect KRS to be a lot better than MSTS and if you compare both out of the box then KRS is miles ahead.
i also don't understand why MS's support is praised in such a manner, lots of bugs in MSTS were never fixed. meanwhile there is already a list of bugs to be fixed and details to add on the KRS website, while it isn't even released in most markets.
and just because MS plans to use their flightsim engine for MSTS2 doesn't mean it will be awesome...or even work at all. there is no physics engine in any sim that is capable of doing everything and for a train sim you need completely different rules than for a flightsim or a racingsim.

As far as comparing MSTS and KRS out of the box, KRS would be miles ahead if the out of the box content wasn't so horribly broken with trains ramming into each other in activities, or being routed off path with no warning. I've just made a very similar post in another thread, so I shan't repeat myself here, but I think you ought to read it as it does relate to what you're saying (http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 35#p898435). As far as MS supporting the original, MS are equivalent to EA as far as support goes for the product in my understanding, they may hold the rights to the name/brand, but the code was still developed and maintained by Kuju, not MS as far as I'm aware.

KRS a lot better than MSTS???

I was thriling with KRS until I started one activity... and found out that there simply is no departing signal to start the activity.
For God sakes.... I never thought I would say this... but let me get back to that "OK to proceed!" line!

It's going to take a ot of convincing for me.... not to mention dinamics (real physics). I de-coupled a carriage while moving.... the carriage just stoped righ there.... infinite deceleration!!!!
what about inercia???? they came talking about "transition curves" and "field shunts"..... and something has basic has incercia is overlooked? Sir Isaac Newton must be rolling in his grave!!!
And i would like so much to lay exactly 100m of straight track. No 99,4 or 100,6 but just 100.

I will stop here... I am not disapointed.I am frustrated!!!

Which is more than the rolling stock .

CPVCEO wrote:Sir Isaac Newton must be rolling in his grave!!!

After having the game for few days, my opinion hasn't changed.

It feels like a game, not a simulator. One of my biggest dissapointments has to be the sounds. I happened to be present (by pure co-incidence) when the Deltic sounds were being recorded (I even drooled over the superb recording equipment being used. We are talking 24 bit resolution, 192khz stuff here. When I actually drove the Deltic, it sounded like listening to an AM radio - no shape to the sound, total lack of dynamics. I have heard richer sounds coming from my MOS6581 chip (Commodore 64 for those that remember!)

The 3D cabs do look pretty - but they are ultimatley self defeating in terms of ease of use.

I was also rather suprised to find myself running into 'points set against train' scenarios. We often complain that the MSTS signalman can't handle conflicting traffic, but it seems that RS doesn't even have a signalman!

If the RS team sort these things out with patches, then I will hapilly take my hat off, and say well done, but until the basics can be covered, I have taken my 6gb of HDD space back for other things. MSTS and BVE will do just fine for now thank you.

Cheers

Gaz

If the RS team sort these things out with patches, then I will hapilly take my hat off, and say well done, but until the basics can be covered, I have taken my 6gb of HDD space back for other things. MSTS and BVE will do just fine for now thank you.

If that statement doesn't ring alarm bells at RSD, then nothing will.

Kuju, oh Kuju, did you learn NOTHING from MSTS 1 !? Apparently not.....

I wondered why Kuju removed their name from the sim......I smelt a rat.

I hope they have enough programmers left on the payroll, to fix even just the basics......I hate to say it, but by the tone of the comments made throughout the KRS forums, errr sorry, RS forums, that Jon B was right all along......ouch, that was a painful admission!

Cheers Bazza

And all the others who urged caution ?.

Sadly they were shouted out of house ( quite vociferously in many cases ), problem is now that said same persons are urging other points ( some positive in the global train sim land scenario )and yet again there being ignored ?.

Truth is, as John D pointed out, this pile of mess will now impact peoples feelings toward up coming sims.

Time and time again were told not to mix apples and pears yet in the same breath those said same people are saying well if KRS did this and that then TSx will do this and that, now thats hypocrisy at its best.

Best

Michael

CaptainBazza wrote: I hate to say it, but by the tone of the comments made throughout the KRS forums, errr sorry, RS forums, that Jon B was right all along......ouch, that was a painful admission!
Cheers Bazza

Well - as I said on another thread - I have heard that KUJU is no longer involved in this project. I have heard that they ran into financial difficulties and were forced to sell the lot to Rail Simulator Developments. So its a question I think, of whether and how many of the original KUJU staff went to RSD.