Had enough

[nestfilms]

++IT WAS PROMISED++ THAT MSTS ROUTES AND STOCK WOULD BE COMPATIBLE with Rail Simulator when KRS was announced that is the reason I placed my pre-order for it over 14 months ago and probably another reason why I am disappointed with it.
Regards, Dick.

I think you might be getting mixed up with TMTS which was always advertised as being able to import routes and Locos from MSTS. Unfortunatly this is now on hold and has been for sometime.
KRS as has been said has never said they would be compatable. if you are still not convinced then there are 2 years worth of archive posts from KRS i suggest you read through them to see if you can find where it was announced

[Kippers]

++IT WAS PROMISED++ THAT MSTS ROUTES AND STOCK WOULD BE COMPATIBLE with Rail Simulator when KRS was announced that is the reason I placed my pre-order for it over 14 months ago and probably another reason why I am disappointed with it.
Regards, Dick.

First of all, 14 months! Jesus, that is a massive period of a development cycle, things were bound to change and decisions were made. Secondly, how can you be dissapointed about something which had in very fact, any chance of actually being included? Someone mentions Trainz and the getting on Jet2 engine, which is a very valid point.

Sounds like you were trying to build the tower of Babel out of RS, when in fact it is not, and will not be, but it can still be good, even if its not up to your overly lofty apprehensive expectations.

[KlausM]

No one predicted the actual bugs. The concentration was upon RDSL not being chummy enough, licensing for payware and advertising. In other words, politics.

By the way: I think this is an unjustified accusation against the community who watched the development. Many tried to be supportive and made constructive and usable suggestions. It is not their fault that Kuju didn't listen for whatever reason. Also, Kuju always claimed to have "subject matter experts" for all areas of the simulation, which is quite questionable from today's perspective, but was regarded as a matter of fact earlier.

Klaus

[johndibben]

By the way: I think this is an unjustified accusation against the community who watched the development. Many tried to be supportive and made constructive and usable suggestions. It is not their fault that Kuju didn't listen for whatever reason. Also, Kuju always claimed to have "subject matter experts" for all areas of the simulation, which is quite questionable from today's perspective, but was regarded as a matter of fact earlier.

Klaus

Taking into account your post before this, you have probably misunderstood my post to the point where you've read the reverse of that which I saying. Firstly, I wasn't bashing anyone in particular but a much criticised parochial attitude which favours MSTS and any sim closely associated with it to the exclusion on Trainz and KRS. You only have to read many posts here to confirm that. Not all hold that view. Many will try any new sim, give it a fair chance but decide only one suits their needs. No one would complain about that. What people like myself complain about is anyone who won't and uses any opportunity to behave with what's often termed a 'football supporter' type mentality.

I'm only bashing people who bash others and that includes Trainz as it happens to be my preferred sim. For years I've posted here and even been a site mod when the attitude to Trainz hostile but ignored it as Trainz didn't need defending. The sniping at KRS commenced almost from the day it was released and the old forum shows this clearly. It's been given a very rough ride wheras MSTS and TMTS saw nothing like this despite little or no information and interaction being chummy banter more than substance. Nestfilms pointed this out and asked why? I replied that it is always MSTS isn't it? I was agreeing that MSTS received the the benefit of the doubt here.

Realise your first langauge isn't English and I ramble on a bit but hope I've now made myself clear in my post.

However, I stand by my claim that it hasn't been proven RSDL has been no more or less interested in people's views than any other developer. It's clear what's happened in private is another matter. Influential figures have made no secret of their feeling of being left out or ignored in discussions and decisions behind the scenes. That filtered onto the forum here and in many respects there were the forum was serving two purposes. One was allowing helpful and constructive discussion and the other was venting frustration over political issues. The latter impinged on the former, attitudes hardened and this idea that Kuju were treating the community badly came about. it fact what happened was a wall was built between the two sides in what was more like a war of attrition than a discussion. The result was 28 pages of waffle about IGA along with other threads which spread mistrust and bitternes. The same thing happned with Trains and Auran was accused of many things and some were completely false. People repeated tham and others came to believe it. Finally, we're seeing support for KRS growing but there's now it's been made far more difficult by past events. It only takes a few of the 'grandees' in the hobby to support any sim for many others to follow and the whole mood to change. The 'community' is only that which people people define it as. The real trainsim community was lost years ago and a series of 'communities' were formed which have very different aims and associated with groups. There's some overlap. There's agreement in some areas but not in others. Which community was RSDL supposed to work with? Where do they go to get any concensus? Any developer will tell you that if you ask any question, you'll receive many conflicting replies. The notion of talking to the trainsim community in order to build a sim which will suit most is impossible. You please one and offend another. Not talking to the community is simply a stick to bash RDSL with unless anyone could define what that entails.

Realise this is a long postand I'm simply a trainsimmer but I feel I'm only saying that which is obvious.

I've taken the time to post it because I want all trainsims to succeed in a manner which suits their target customers and provide the widest variety of sims and a greater choice than at present

[stewart]

Very well put John I couldnt have put it better myself..........even if you did mean RSDL Seriously it is time to put all this behind us and get on with what we are here for. Namely to enjoy our hobby with whatever simulator we prefer without having to feel the need to justify our choice or push it down everyone else's throat for that matter.

[johndibben]

Very well put John I couldnt have put it better myself..........even if you did mean RSDL

Edited for that and other spelling mistakes

I keep getting the initials wrong. They're stuck in my beer-soaked brain

[KlausM]

Hi John,

thanks for clarification. I agree to some extend. However, I have to admit that I was heavily involved in the IGA discussion as well as in a serious conflict between Auran and the German Trainz community, and in both cases, I have only little feelings of guilt.

Klaus

[jbilton]

Arrh I see its 'our' fault the game has so many basic mistakes in it.
Now that is like politics today........ never the politicians fault.......always some one else's.
Personally I see the IGA business as a success, people power can win over the 'suits' if they club together.
Although given time, it will possibly raise its ugly head again.
Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Personally I see the IGA business as a success, people power can win over the 'suits' if they club together.
Although given time, it will possibly raise its ugly head again.
Cheers
Jon

I totally agree. Jon it certainly wasn't 28 pages of waffle if it secured even a minor security breach. No big deal for those lucky enough to have a "Sim only" machine perhaps!

The fact remains that much that is criticised here could surely have been averted with better beta testing?

As I've been discussing elsewhere the coming together of talent and creativity from both MSTS and Trainz communities has surely got to be a plus as long as the paroachialism from the old sims doesn't spill over into the new ones. Rightly or wrongly it seems to me that MSTS has had a much more open community than Trainz? Maybe that's why folk from the MSTS "background" feel more that their input was ignored? Did the Trainz forums have an input during development too? ...or are they run by Auran? and therefore would have direct issues with competition? I must stress that I know little about Trainz. My questions are genuine and NOT mischief making.

Geoff

[Easilyconfused]

Personally I see the IGA business as a success, people power can win over the 'suits' if they club together.
Although given time, it will possibly raise its ugly head again.
Cheers
Jon

I totally agree. Jon it certainly wasn't 28 pages of waffle if it secured even a minor security breach. No big deal for those lucky enough to have a "Sim only" machine perhaps!

The fact remains that much that is criticised here could surely have been averted with better beta testing?

Totally agree with both of you. Yes - moderating and wading through 28 pages of posts was tedious but a very valuable exercise for myself. I learnt some new things and had my fears concerning IGA both confirmed and ultimately put to bed for the initial release. I do note there is a directory in my install called "adcache" so it is still out there (as admitted at the time).

As for beta testing - I would maintain that if a couple of dozen of the extremely active members here (either content providers or screen-shot producers) had been engaged then at least 75% of the most glaring problems will have been found. Not talking about the lack of wished for features such as superelevation but basic signalling issues and the fact one supplied scenario pretty much replicates a major rail crash if run in a specific way.

[johndibben]

Can anyone prove the IGA debate changed anything? Some are saying it's still a possibility whch means it didn't if true. It doesn't take 28 pages to describe IGA anyway.

I knew the subject of bugs would come up but that wasn't the subject under discussion. Agree with others that it's the bugs which are important now. A debate about beta-testing across the board in trainsimming would be useful. It would be an issue for the Trainsimming Forum I suggested. Here and now it's an issue I doubt many people attempting to get KRS to work properly are bothered about.

As I've been discussing elsewhere the coming together of talent and creativity from both MSTS and Trainz communities has surely got to be a plus as long as the paroachialism from the old sims doesn't spill over into the new ones. Rightly or wrongly it seems to me that MSTS has had a much more open community than Trainz? Maybe that's why folk from the MSTS "background" feel more that their input was ignored? Did the Trainz forums have an input during development too? ...or are they run by Auran? and therefore would have direct issues with competition? I must stress that I know little about Trainz. My questions are genuine and NOT mischief making.

Geoff

Here we go again, Geoff. You admit you know very little about Trainz and made an assumption on an open community based upon what? It's probably based upon the false impressions of many aspects of Trainz spread on UKTS? If Trainz has had the 'gang warfare' we've seen here then I've not seen it. They complain that Auran could do more and there's not enough support but it's kept going.

Mike10 or KlausM are better placed than myself to answer your questions though.

In any event there's a rather nice Trainz 9F for me to drive which was uploaded yesterday.

Not bad from a . sim developed by the communist czars of Planet Auran

As for beta testing - I would maintain that if a couple of dozen of the extremely active members here (either content providers or screen-shot producers) had been engaged then at least 75% of the most glaring problems will have been found. Not talking about the lack of wished for features such as superelevation but basic signalling issues and the fact one supplied scenario pretty much replicates a major rail crash if run in a specific way.

Can't it be accepted that RSDL probably ran out of time? It appears far more logical. One person could find the bugs in a day. Why simply here for beta-testers? How neutral would they be? There's been enough talk of private conversations to suggest information on KRS before release would've found it's way to competitors.

People do not adhere to NDA's and anyone who been associated with trainimming at a commercial level knows this which means only those closest get the job. The problem is that they often don't want to criticise their friends. In a perfect world you'd enlist the awkward squad as they'd find everything but this isn't a perfect world

[lateagain]

As I've been discussing elsewhere the coming together of talent and creativity from both MSTS and Trainz communities has surely got to be a plus as long as the paroachialism from the old sims doesn't spill over into the new ones. Rightly or wrongly it seems to me that MSTS has had a much more open community than Trainz? Maybe that's why folk from the MSTS "background" feel more that their input was ignored? Did the Trainz forums have an input during development too? ...or are they run by Auran? and therefore would have direct issues with competition? I must stress that I know little about Trainz. My questions are genuine and NOT mischief making.

Geoff

Here we go again, Geoff. You admit you know very little about Trainz and made an assumption on an open community based upon what? It's probably based upon the false impressions of many aspects of Trainz spread on UKTS?

Jon

I never have posted, or joined in with any Anti Trainz ranting either here or on TS.com. In fact I even supported a Trainz screenshot post where some idiot was stirring things up on TS.com just the other day. If you can be bothered and search my posts you'll find comments I've made on Trainz screenshots posted in the distant past

Further more I've never read the anti Trainz stuff on UKTS as I never saw the point in it. The point I make in the first part of my post (quoted above) is surely a positive and constructive one? It was intended to be however else you've read it.

If I got the impression that Trainz was less open it's probably because I couldn't access the Trainz site without a registered copy as I saw it.

Doubtless there have been plenty of stupid anti Trainz posts here but Trainz fans seem so over sensitive to the mention of the name that they seem to assume that we're all tarred with the same idiotic brush. As my thread on MSTS General forum is showing many of us have both. Like me that means that many of us would welcome a larger Trainz section here no doubt?

I've digressed enough, but lets put the anti Trainz nonsense to bed once and for all?

Geoff

[johndibben]

Jon

I never have posted, or joined in with any Anti Trainz ranting either here or on TS.com. In fact I even supported a Trainz screenshot post where some idiot was stirring things up on TS.com just the other day. If you can be bothered and search my posts you'll find comments I've made on Trainz screenshots posted in the distant past

Further more I've never read the anti Trainz stuff on UKTS as I never saw the point in it. The point I make in the first part of my post (quoted above) is surely a positive and constructive one? It was intended to be however else you've read it.

If I got the impression that Trainz was less open it's probably because I couldn't access the Trainz site without a registered copy as I saw it.

Doubtless there have been plenty of stupid anti Trainz posts here but Trainz fans seem so over sensitive to the mention of the name that they seem to assume that we're all tarred with the same idiotic brush. As my thread on MSTS General forum is showing many of us have both. Like me that means that many of us would welcome a larger Trainz section here no doubt?

I've digressed enough, but lets put the anti Trainz nonsense to bed once and for all?

Geoff

Not accusing you of being anti-Trainz but you say yourself that it exists or existed. Quite simply UKTS didn't get on with Auran for some time. I was simply drawing a parallel between then and now.

This shows how old issues, even those leading up to the release of KRS arn't helpful and we need to move on from that to what we have and not what we might've had.

I'm getting on with attempting to build a KRS route though.

I say route but it will be more like a layout with the time it's taking me to work out the route editor

[desiro5]

Well, i'm through with KRS for definate now, back to msts.

As i got it for £10 it really was a "bargain bin 1 night thrill".

I might develop scenarios for it, but it depends.

Beating MSTS with bin in a train sim is a mean feat.... dont think its ever going to happen.

[Mike10]

As I've been discussing elsewhere the coming together of talent and creativity from both MSTS and Trainz communities has surely got to be a plus as long as the paroachialism from the old sims doesn't spill over into the new ones. Rightly or wrongly it seems to me that MSTS has had a much more open community than Trainz? Maybe that's why folk from the MSTS "background" feel more that their input was ignored? Did the Trainz forums have an input during development too? ...or are they run by Auran? and therefore would have direct issues with competition? I must stress that I know little about Trainz. My questions are genuine and NOT mischief making.

Geoff

Here we go again, Geoff. You admit you know very little about Trainz and made an assumption on an open community based upon what? It's probably based upon the false impressions of many aspects of Trainz spread on UKTS? If Trainz has had the 'gang warfare' we've seen here then I've not seen it. They complain that Auran could do more and there's not enough support but it's kept going.

Mike10 or KlausM are better placed than myself to answer your questions though.

I'll have a go at answering

John's comment about 'gang warfare'...... not seen any, and I've been around since the start. (although there was a bit of a set-to in the German forum I believe when someone pulled all their content off the DLS and broke loads of people's routes. But then Klaus can probably explain more about that one ) There was also a little friction when '06 was released as it did not deliver all the things people imagined it would (even though they had been told it wouldn't). There were valid problems but they were drowned out in the general maoning about being ripped off etc. etc.. (sound familiar at all) and the good things were lost in the wave of moaning.

No closed shop in the Trainz community. There are lots of independent forums around the world that do not require membership to read. At UKTrainz we like people to join before they take part as it gives us a point of contact for people, we don't check anything with regard to game ownership though. The official Auran forum is slightly different as they require you to register the game before you can see all the sections. Of course the official MSTS forum......... ah, no... I'll move on.

I'm not aware of any Trainz-specific forums being asked anything re: RS. Of course it may have been different for individuals approached directly (nobody asked me anything though, if that helps ).

In answer to a later post of yours (and saving posting again myself). I think Trainz users here are a little touchy at the mention of the name as they have not too fond memories of some previous days here. And the word 'Trainz' is often preceded by the words "its better than", or even "at least it's not". For myself there is the perception (always a difficult thing to deal with, perceptions) is that people are quite happy to repeat something somebody else said as fact even though they have no first-hand knowledge of the actual facts. Witness the "it's too toy-like" comment which is dispelled within seconds if you look at the screenshots on here and elsewhere.

I could go on for hours, but that'll do for now. Let me know if there's any other questions.

Mike.