An interesting point of law perhaps?

[rufuskins]

Read this at lunch time and not quite sure how to take it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025

Alec

[jbilton]

Hi

Seems about right to me .... councils shouldn't be wasting tax payers money on saying prayers.
Having said that , we held a minutes silence for a recently deceased Councillor at the Labour GMC .... but we were 'invited to hold a minutes silence' and only those that wished said a prayer.
No one left the room.

cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Been enjoying the "Daily Wail's" readers feedback on this one Alec but surprisingly the majority support seemed to be for Jon and my own opinion, that it has no place in a council meeting. I was rather amused to read that according to one Wail reader my position as an aetheist meant that I support all the dictators that killed millions of innocent people?!?!?! ....well he was a Wail reader ....but then I read the item myself.

As I repeatedly tell people I respect everyone's entitlement to hold their own beliefs and in return I expect them to respect mine. As usual half the readership has gone off half cocked and decided this is an attack on christianity, several have demanded to know how the councillor involved "copes" with attending weddings in church etc.

The issue was about council meetings. If I attended a church and found a council meeting happening in it I'd be mildly surprised. However if I attended a church and folk were praying in it I would afford them every courtesy and try to be as inobtrusive as possible. I would say that acts of worship in secular organisations AS A MATTER OF COURSE (rather than to mark a specific event) would seem to be rather out of place and as has been pointed out where do the prayers end? Surely if we're talking about tolerance then ALL denominations should be represented, have their turn etc. etc. Not a very practical solution is it? Far better that folk pray privately or in the collective place of worship of their choosing?

Nearly all religions preach tolerance and a morality that involves the care and respect of others. Aetheists can and do believe in the same sort of codes of conduct but without a belief in a God/Gods.

...but then of course we have the fundamentalists of many faiths who show little or no tolerance or respect for anyone who does not believe exactly as they do!

Personally I applaud Clive Bone for having the courage to raise the issue and see it through. Our history is full of disgraceful events where the mixing of specific religious views with secular business has lead to the disadvantage, even persecution of those of other faiths and IMO it's best kept seperate.

Geoff

[curate]

I have to say that I have no problem with this.

It's being reported in the press (and even on Radio 3) that "prayers at council meetings are now illegal", which is clearly not the case:

However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.

I know of two local councils - one town, one parish - where a good 80-90% of the councillors are practising Christians (and, in fact, I have led the annual mayor's service for one of them), in which cases a complete ban on prayers would be somewhat inappropriate.

The aim of such prayers, for believers, is that God and His precepts will direct their deliberations to the best conclusions for their region and their constituents; which is a laudable aim - so prayers have a purpose for those who believe. If you don't believe in God, then you won't believe that there is a higher guide, so non-attendance is surely an option - and I think has been for some time.

Trying to make prayers "illegal" would surely be as unjust as forcing a non-believer to attend prayers?

David

[lateagain]

I have to say that I have no problem with this.

It's being reported in the press (and even on Radio 3) that "prayers at council meetings are now illegal", which is clearly not the case:

However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend.

I know of two local councils - one town, one parish - where a good 80-90% of the councillors are practising Christians (and, in fact, I have led the annual mayor's service for one of them), in which cases a complete ban on prayers would be somewhat inappropriate.

The aim of such prayers, for believers, is that God and His precepts will direct their deliberations to the best conclusions for their region and their constituents; which is a laudable aim - so prayers have a purpose for those who believe. If you don't believe in God, then you won't believe that there is a higher guide, so non-attendance is surely an option - and I think has been for some time.

Trying to make prayers "illegal" would surely be as unjust as forcing a non-believer to attend prayers?

David

I have to say that I was amused to hear the omitted part of the judgement driving with the radio on too.

However as someone raised as a christian, and a regular church goer till I was 15 I still believe that the "creed" of christianity is a sound one. I'm equally sure that other faith's creeds are sound too. As I no longer believe in a God the power of prayer is of no relevance to me personally but I do remember that I was taught that christians believe that God is everywhere?

Whatever your faith, lack of faith, or beliefs may be, if you stand for election to represent the public you do so to serve that public. If you believe that prayer might help that process that's fine. However holding prayers at the start of the meeting is at worst devisive and and best pointless? Pointless? Well if God is everywhere and you are doing your best for those who elected you surely he knows that? If you're not then who or what are you praying for?

We see statistics about church attendance but are any statistics about religious belief in any way accurate? I sincerely doubt it.

I see no necessity to pray at meetings anymore than there is a necessity for aetheists to explain their beliefs and values at them? Much has been made in the Media of the non attendance of those who don't want to pray until after prayers. Equally valid is the idea that those who want to pray should do so before the meeting? As someone who accepts that we should all be free to follow our own beliefs within the laws of the land I cannot see why any religious group cannot see that including prayers exclusive to their beliefs is not potentially offensive to others.

geoff

[oldrocker]

Why can't everyone follow Dave Allen's wise words?

At the beginning of a council meeting or any other such thing, how about 'May your God direct and help you.' ?

That way if you're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, money worshiper, whatever, you're covered.

[CaptainBazza]

Hello David, nice to see you back again.

Cheers Bazza