What are the Police for?

[jbilton]

Hi
I think this is a better quote ...........

Thomas Jefferson said,
"If the America people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Everyone that has posted is correct....... but at different levels.
We certainly need a fundamental shakeup of our democracy and laws.

Cheers
Jon

[lateagain]

Nice Quote Jon!

I must borrow that to throw into the arguments I seem to be good at getting into

As for everyone being right. Yeah I'd go along with that because everyone has used common sense and many have spoken from experience. Both factors that sadly seem to have little to do with the policy making process of ANY authority nowadays

Geoff

[gswindale]

BTW just to break one "holy mantra" of the last year.... We DON'T HAVE to have CUTS! We could stop blatant profiteering, raise taxes (Income tax has rarely been as low as it is now FACT!) and improve the services.

We could also stop the "cost of living" increase that certain public sector industries seem to get every year - that would surely give a little towards reducing the deficit? Might upset a few people mind, but would bring them into line with the real world.

[lateagain]

BTW just to break one "holy mantra" of the last year.... We DON'T HAVE to have CUTS! We could stop blatant profiteering, raise taxes (Income tax has rarely been as low as it is now FACT!) and improve the services.

We could also stop the "cost of living" increase that certain public sector industries seem to get every year - that would surely give a little towards reducing the deficit? Might upset a few people mind, but would bring them into line with the real world.

Well despite the rantings of THE DAILY WAIL and THE DAILY EXCESS and THE DAILY TORYGRAPH I can tell you that far from having cost of living increases those in the sector of Further Education that I worked in have had NO pay increase or Increases of 1/1.5% for 3-4 years now, which is in effect a pay CUT! As for public sector perks???? Like what???? I never had any. Bonuses??? "You're having a laugh!" Public sector pension schemes are contributory pension shemes. If the schemes seem better than most nowadays it's because T*******'s obsession with privatisation led to the scandle of all the private pension schemes that went bust or failed to achieve sustainability. Can't actually blame the government for that. It was just greed by the Banks and Insurance companies .....which brings us nicely back to where we are now

I've some very old friends who live now in the States. When we visited them they seemed to have a very plush lifestyle compared to that they could afford in the UK. My mate said "listen Geoff, the cost of living is lower and what your $ buys is much greater. BUT..... you have to pay for most things we took for granted in the UK and although we get medical insurance as part of our employment package, if you loose your job you loose your medical cover. As you get older and therefore statistically more likely to suffer from medical problems you live in fear of illness. I never had to worry about that back home"

That's what your taxes pay for. Not the NON existent public sector "inflated" (that's a laugh) salaries or Perks or Pensions. As usual the media all latch on to sensational stories about a miniscule % of people who get BIG money and perks and report it as if it were a norm across an entire sector. Face it the average Joe in any form of employment in any sector doesn't live that fat. The management in MOST sectors DO earn big money and if there's anything wrong with that it's that they don't just get booted out when they do wrong ....as would surely happen to any average Joe? Public/Private. It's YOU that pays the bonuses and Golden handshakes.

Oh! and one last thought. I know of a part of the sector I worked in where due to a managemnt deficit dozens of people were recently made redundant. Redundant implies that their job no longer exists ....not that the organisation just can't afford to pay for it. Of course public sector organisations have boards of Governors who are mainly volunteers. However if you were chair of such a board that had presided over such job losses would YOU accept an "honour"? I know I wouldn't .....but I know one who did! Still the honour didn't cost us anything ....just a few folks their livelihood?

[gswindale]

I can tell you that far from having cost of living increases those in the sector of Further Education that I worked in have had NO pay increase or Increases of 1/1.5% for 3-4 years now, which is in effect a pay CUT!

But that is 1 - 1.5% more than the rest of us have had (although when I changed jobs almost 3 years ago I took a 10% pay cut that resulted in a net increase in my salary and a better quality of life due to reduced transport costs & shorter journey times)

[lateagain]

I can tell you that far from having cost of living increases those in the sector of Further Education that I worked in have had NO pay increase or Increases of 1/1.5% for 3-4 years now, which is in effect a pay CUT!

But that is 1 - 1.5% more than the rest of us have had (although when I changed jobs almost 3 years ago I took a 10% pay cut that resulted in a net increase in my salary and a better quality of life due to reduced transport costs & shorter journey times)

Cross posted there. It may be more than SOME got but even now equally it's less than some got too?

The fact is that cuts means job losses and job losses cost us ALL money. Better to pay a bit more tax if it generates employment. Many Private sector jobs depend upon the service they provide to the Public Sector. A societies wealth must be measured by that of most of it's citizens?

[dikkidee]

I was not going to revisit this as I had my say and probably said too much. However Geoff mentioned the word PENSION!! The police pension, you know the one the Daily Liar(Mail) and the Torygraph reported not so long ago as being a fantastically high and Gracious NON CONTRIBUTORY Pension Scheme. Hmmm, yes I get a good pension off of the Police but I damn well paid for it at an extorionate whacking great 11% of my salary over 30 years. I hope Geoff will agree with me on this one, this is the highest contribution anyone makes to their pension closely followed by the teachers at, I think 7%. Most other pension schemes both private and public are around 3 - 4% Here is the real rub your nose in it - That 11% was taxed at scource out of my salary when I originally earnt it and the Crafty So and So's, (I had a word deleted out of my last post, so noted and I had better be careful) tax it a second time when I am paid it now!!!! If this is a free non contributory pension then I want 30 Years of 11% of my salary back plus the 40% tax I am paying on it. Bah!!!

Regards, Dikkidee. Now where can I put this soap box away.........

[jbilton]

Hi
We digress as usual.

The scary thing is that if all the Tax was collected, that is already owed , the country would nearly clear the deficit.
I hate to say it , but that is the last Governments fault.
If its not collected over the next 2 years, then its the current Governments fault.

No one likes the public sector, or paying for it .... until they need it.
I certainly agree that no one should do the same job for less.
So if a Government wants zero rises, then they need to control inflation.
The private sector drives inflation.
The big question, and one no Government has answered, is how do you control the private sector.
Gordon thought he had cured 'Boom and bust' .... but here we are again.


The only problem with Police pensions , is that all the Governments over the years didn't actually save the money.
So now Police forces are faced with paying 2 wage bills.
Those for active officers and another nearly as big (and getting bigger) for retired officers.
(This has been addressed for new officers who now pay 7% for 34 years).
However where most public sector workers (Police/Teachers/Armed forces/Health) got better deals, in that all current members were protected on the higher older scales, LGPS members were forced onto the new scales.
The reason given was there were too many of them, about 750,000 in England and Wales.

Cheers
Jon

[dikkidee]

Hi Jon, Nice to here from you. It is quite correct what you say with regard to the new pension scheme which, I think, affects new Officers recruited in the last five years. We were all encouraged to switch to the new pension scheme, who wants to switch to a scheme where you work (5 Years) longer, and the commutation, should you wish to take it instead of a monthly pension is a third of what the original pension scheme commutation was and a third less than the old monthly amount. The incentive.... Well under the old scheme in the event of the death of an Officer his widow gets a half pension, but they have to be married. Under the new scheme the half pension can also go to unmarried partners and those in a single sex relationship provided there has been a civil ceremony..Wow!. Under either scheme if a serving Officer dies even if he is at 29years 364 days in service (Under the old scheme) his dependent get sweet nothing because the pension has not yet been awarded.... The sickest thing is if he or her is killed in the line of duty, well the government is quids in!!

The new scheme is an investment pension where monies gathered are invested , the shortcoming of the old scheme was that it was a 'reflective' pension, I.E. monies gathered one month was/is paid out to the pensioners the next. Great, when it first came out in 1922, because far more came in than was ever paid out. Up untill about 15 years ago the average life expectancy of a Police Officer after retirement was 15 years - so if an officer retired at, say 55yrs he was lucky to see 70, many a lot less, not a long term pension prospect. Nowadays the average life expectancy is 30yrs, like the rest of the population taking him into his or her mid 80's ...oohh err the Governments sums are now wrong!!! and there are an awful lot of people who are going to be mighty miffed if the goal posts are moved... Need a new scheme where the goal posts can be easily moved.

I was asked many times what I was going to do when I retired from the Police Service. My Answer?? To live long enough to get more out of the pension than what I paid into !! So a few more years yet to complete MML steam/Diesel era, no rush, hopefully.................

[lateagain]

Just to put a few revisionist myths to bed...

The public sector pension schemes were set up to protect and provide a pension for the employees who contributed various % of their income towards them.. The employer (as with NI and Private company schemes) also contributed to the scheme. The schemes were not set up to make profits for shareholders or anyone else.

The debacle of "Private pension schemes" caused, and by the way despite best advice form all and sundry, many in the public sector to buy into the "privatisation is better" line and they left the public sector schemes to "do better privately". Sadly now the advice of wiser colleagues..... "stupid" rings in many of their ears. even more irritatingly they now seem to be trying to lay the blame for their bad decision on those who stayed with and supported the original scheme. Well grown ups know that if you back the loser it's your choice and you don't win a prize?!

Going back a while my uncle left the Bank who's name rhymes with a song about a square at what was then the contracted retirement age of 60. BEAR IN MIND what has been said above about life expectancy. In those days (back in the 70's) their pension scheme paid an unheard of 2/3rds final salary I believe. That was also index linked. Given that he served in the RAF during WWII you'll be amused to hear that he survived long enough to receive more years of pension than he did of salary (and therefore contributions)!! I'm delighted to report that his 90th birthday party was a hoot and attended by a good few of his contemporaries .

BTW if any of you still think that you pay for public sector pensions .....just WHO do you think pays for company operated schemes or even private pensions?

YOU DO. You pay it in the price of what you buy, you pay it in your insurance premiums, you pay it in your bank and credit card charges etc. etc. etc.

There's NO such thing as a free lunch. Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.

Especially don't listen to folk wearing rosettes, carrying clip boards and smiling. Whatever the colour of the rosette!

Geoff

[Tonysmedley]

I did say earlier that I would not contribute further to this thread, but --
I worked for the government all my working life and retired 5 years earlier than expected.
My lump sum payment was reduced by several thousand pounds to make up for the contributions I would otherwise have paid for the widow's part of my "free" pension.
It was about that time that Margaret Thatcher cause anger amongst government employees by claiming in Parliament that Civil Servants did not pay for their pensions. I still hold that against her, and when I think of her and other MP's pensions!!!!

Tony

[terrycunliffe]

OK guys, lets please get this back on topic, or this forum "policeman" will "lock" this up (pun intended)

Thanks for your understanding.

T

[Crimpsal]

I only have one comment to make ..............................

When the Police realise that they are the "Servents of the Law", not "The" law, then we will have
officers that work for the people, rather than political puppets.

Who pays their wages, the people, not the government, the government has no money, the only
money the government has, is our money, the PEOPLES MONEY. the sooner the police realise this
the sooner they wil start working for the people who actually pay their wages.

[g0fthick]

When the Police realise that they are the "Servents of the Law", not "The" law,

[lateagain]

Terry with due respect it IS on topic.

Most of the problems with the police are down to CUTS. Too few people, poor IT systems etc. It's ALL about money. The best copper in the world stands no more chance of upholding the law as teachers do of improving education whilst there are constant cuts and endless so called "Efficiency measures". There is no breach of any forum rules here. What is being discussed is economics. When I did economics at school the politics in economics were rather Black or White, Left or Right. Those days are LONG gone ...and by the way economics in school!? ...shows how old I am . A few folk here seem to have missed that we're where we're at because of international "mal practice" by international organisations. Tone, Gordon, Dave et al are just riding the beast and trying to keep above water.

Kev you're right in theory of course. In practice though we elect the government to decide how they'll spend the money they collect.

It falls down there because a large % who could vote don't vote, often because they can find no one who represents the direction they think things should go ...but equally sadly a lot out of apathy. Then we have those elected changing promises or just plain going back on them..... which of course makes people even more cynical about getting involved or bothering to vote. If I could look back on my job and the many excellent folk I worked with over the years and say "Gosh wasn't it great that he/she was able to achieve so much and leave on a high!" I'd be less cynical. Sadly what I witnessed was a bunch of really decent people trying their hardest to improve things and finally being ground down by obstruction after obstruction and looking for the best "out" ...usually the next round of redundancies? I think the fact that most ex-colleagues look 10 years younger when they've come back after leaving says more about what's wrong than anything OFSTED ever produced?

Coming right back to Tony's original post. I can give Tony 25+ years but the fact that some of you are so amazed that he should think he'd done the right thing is really telling. Not that many years ago he'd have been thanked for his call and assured that they'd contact the relevant authority. Put that FACT together with my points about cuts and it's pretty obvious where the problem lies isn't it?

Geoff