Atomic Systems

Just been into town to pick up my monthly Railway mag, and on page 14 is something very interesting,

Apparently due to rising fuel costs NR are considering/planning "filling in" the majority of remaining diesel routes by electrifying them, the proposed routes are as follows;

Liverpool - Springs Branch Junction/Bamfurlong Junction
Wrexham - Bidston
Edge hill - Chester north Junction
Gospel Oak - Barking
Leeds - Colton Junction
Micklefield Junction - Hambleton Junction
Manchester - Euxton Junction (thats not a typo before anybody corrects me )
Walsall - Castle Bromwich Junction
Nuneaton - Coventry & Grand Junction - Nuneaton
Peterborough - Ely
Bedford - Bletchly
Hurst Green - Uckfield

(The last one comes as the biggest shock to me, but there is a bright side, apparently if the line is electrified NR will consider reinstating the line south whilst also electrifying that )

But what strikes me even more is obviously a lot of DMUs use the lines listed above as a whole, so what will happen to them because i doubt they will all be moved to other lines, as the remaining diesel lines obviously already have DMUs.

Fans of the GreatWestern and South wales and also the whole of scotland, you are safe for the time being


*Sorry if this is a repost, Just passing the news*

The cascaded DMUs will allow quite a few Pacers to be withdrawn.

Pity Ely-Norwich isn't included on the list though.

Hmmm there will be scrapping the Voyagers next

Surprised Ipswich to Cambridge & Ely isn't on the list either.

tango4262 wrote:Just been into town to pick up my monthly Railway mag, and on page 14 is something very interesting,

Apparently due to rising fuel costs NR are considering/planning "filling in" the majority of remaining diesel routes by electrifying them, the proposed routes are as follows;

Leeds - Colton Junction
Micklefield Junction - Hambleton Junction
Peterborough - Ely

But what strikes me even more is obviously a lot of DMUs use the lines listed above as a whole, so what will happen to them because i doubt they will all be moved to other lines, as the remaining diesel lines obviously already have DMUs.

Fans of the GreatWestern and South wales and also the whole of scotland, you are safe for the time being


*Sorry if this is a repost, Just passing the news*

The top two routes, are the routes that the dragged 91 NXEC services have to use when they get diverted to Doncaster via Leeds from York?
The bottom one would be reasonable as it could be used as a diversion for both the NXEC 91s and the FCC 317s/365s when the mainline is shut between Peterborough and Hitchin.

This is going to sound really stupid, because it's going against the obvious - but nowhere does it say, that they are going to replace the DMU's with EMU's...
And as for the Leeds - York being electrified - why?? There are no northbound trains through Leeds that use overheads anyways. The only route I think that should be electrified from Leeds to York is the Harrogate Line...

I think Diversion mostly, also given that if they do the 'horseshoe' its only a few miles left unwired.

I think we have to accept that some new wiring might not see much electric traction, but little bits here and there soon build up to the point of usefulness, then you add the EMUs/E-Loks

6rdfar90 wrote:This is going to sound really stupid, because it's going against the obvious - but nowhere does it say, that they are going to replace the DMU's with EMU's...
And as for the Leeds - York being electrified - why?? There are no northbound trains through Leeds that use overheads anyways. The only route I think that should be electrified from Leeds to York is the Harrogate Line...

The main benefit would be as a diversionary route, but it would also open up the possibility of journeys from Leeds northwards using electric stock. And, for example, the new London - York semi-fasts that NXEC have planned could run via Leeds - so the fast trains would go via Hambleton, and the semis would go via Wakefield and on to York and perhaps Newcastle.

Many of the routes have significant diversionary potential, which is an important consideration at the moment, as NR & the TOCs get lots of flak over bus-trains. The B'ham Intl - Euston vomiters over the chiltern is one part of a repsonse to this, but it would be so much easier if there were an electrified diversionary route (mind you, there's not many options for that particular one, save the whole chiltern line, and the concept - shockingly - needs to be re-proved as being a sensible use of money before a project like that will get off the ground).

Uckfield seems an odd one, as the only real basis for that (unless the route to Lewes is reopened) is stock utilisation and elimination of diesels on the SC area, but without doing Ashford - Hastings at the same time, there's no justification, as a small diesel fleet will still be required.

arabiandisco wrote:
Uckfield seems an odd one, as the only real basis for that (unless the route to Lewes is reopened) is stock utilisation and elimination of diesels on the SC area, but without doing Ashford - Hastings at the same time, there's no justification, as a small diesel fleet will still be required.

This is what the mag reads for the Uckfield line;

"The only scheme under review in the former southern region (Hastings-Ashford not really falling into the category of "infill") would see energisation of the Uckfield branch from its junction with the East Grinstead line at hurst green. This partly-singled line is operated by class 172 'Turbostar' DMUs.
However, it needn't stop there, for there are plans to reinstate the line south from Uckfield through Isfield, home of the lavender line, to Lewes it would therefore make sense for the whole line to be electrified, creating another London-South Coast through route that could take pressure off the Brighton line.
This would provide better rolling stock utilisation within the existing franchise fleet, allowing the DMUs to be moved to other parts of the country."

But as it will require Southern (and their successors) to retain a DMU fleet for the Ashford - Hastings line, the only conclusion is not to do it. You might be able to move 5 of the units, but they'll still need at least 4 (I'm guessing at numbers here) for the Ashford - Hastings line, and there will be no significant saving in operational costs because you'll still need just as much in the way of maintenance facilities etc.

Neither line really justifies electrification, apart from on the basis that by doing both you can do away with diesels on the SC & SE sections of the southern, with the associated rolling stock savings.

arabiandisco wrote:But as it will require Southern (and their successors) to retain a DMU fleet for the Ashford - Hastings line, the only conclusion is not to do it. You might be able to move 5 of the units, but they'll still need at least 4 (I'm guessing at numbers here) for the Ashford - Hastings line, and there will be no significant saving in operational costs because you'll still need just as much in the way of maintenance facilities etc.

Ok I agree with you here

arabiandisco wrote: Neither line really justifies electrification, apart from on the basis that by doing both you can do away with diesels on the SC & SE sections of the southern, with the associated rolling stock savings.

I disagree here though, ok so it doesn't "need" electrifying, but if the line is reinstated, an idea which its beginning to look more and more realistic, (for those who don't know it went before the priminister on the 25th of june), but anyway staying on topic, if this line was rebuilt and electrified it could run a far better service seeing as the class 377s are capable of accelerating quicker up to line speed than the turbostars are and when taking into account the length of the single line section, this looks an awful lot more efficient way of running a service across a singled section? and also think about it if a service was to run London to Brighton via Uckfield, it wouldn't seem right to run a diesel service if the large majority of the route was electrified, for example (just a rough geuss here) where a turbostar from london would be at lewes an electrostar would have arrived at brighton meaning another service can already be traversing the line which means another service can come back down more frequently

(Hope that makes sense )

For those who are interested here are some details from the Wealden line website, which describe the talks about the line which took place on June 25th

"During Prime Minister's Questions yesterday, Lib Dem Shadow Secretary of State for Transport, Norman Baker MP, asked Gordon Brown: "As a Scottish MP, the Prime Minister will have noticed the strong success of the recently reopened railway between Stirling and Alloa, where passenger numbers are currently three times greater than the projected figure for 2011, and the reopened line to Ebbw Vale in Wales is similarly a success story. If reopening lines in Scotland and Wales makes such good economic sense, why has the Department for Transport ruled out, despite the strong social and environmental case, re-opening lines in England, such as the line from Lewes to Uckfield?"
However, in his response the Prime Minister avoided any mention of reopening English lines and simply referred to general investment plans for the next five years which he claimed would provide 1,300 new carriages for use across the UK.
Expressing his disappointment with Mr Brown's answer, Campaign Director Brian Hart noted that, "Lewes-Uckfield is the first of the English rail schemes to be considered for reopening by Network Rail, as well as the first to be subjected to detailed civil engineering study. It is also among the 'Top Four' already identified by the Conservatives as contenders for reopening and, in the case of Lewes-Uckfield, has potential to ease the capacity crisis in the south."
He added: "On 18 July we expect to know the result and I am 100% confident that by doing this investigation Network Rail has discovered this project is both simple and feasible with no significant obstacles. Quite honestly, if Network Rail, with all its huge resources and technical capabilities, cannot come up with a business case to reopen a seven-mile gap between two of its stations then it's a sorry day for England. Everyone knows Lewes-Uckfield gives us a new main line largely independent of the jammed-up Brighton Line and if this isn't worthwhile, then no other English scheme will ever get started."
As Lord Teviot said in a Lords debate in 1974, when the line closed in 1969 it was carrying 1,000 passengers a day, far more even at that time than the predicted 244,000 a year by 2011 for the Stirling - Alloa link.
Brian Hart concluded: "Because Network Rail has consistently underestimated growth on all its reopenings in Scotland and Wales, we hope they will get it right this time. A huge population expansion has occurred all along the East Sussex coast and in towns along the Uckfield line as far as East Croydon. Although Network Rail reckons Lewes-Uckfield will cost about the same as Bathgate-Airdrie (£108m) the potential for traffic growth and return is immensely higher."

reopening Uckfield - Lewes is somewhat detached from the issue of electrifying Hurst Green - Uckfield. If the line was to be reopened, electrification would be the obvious option - for diversionary and stock utilisation reasons.

Without the reopening, I don't believe there is much of a case for electrifying the line, and even if it is reopened, I believe it is tied up with the Ashford - Hastings line for the reasons I mentioned above.

If it were reopened (and presumably the Eastbourne/ Newhaven trains would be diverted that way, given that the junction at Lewes would probably be on the original alignment to the north of the town, rather than the later alignment where the junction faced Brighton) then it would also need doubling throughout - quite expensive, but probably not too difficult, apart from a mile from Eridge northwards! Doubling would also reduce electrification costs (because of Ohm's law).

Liverpool - Earlestown is certainly one that should be considered as a diversonary route.
Currently Liverpool - Euston Pandemoniums are dragged to Manchester Piccadilly when the line via Runcorn is closed.

Electrification of this section would (probably) not delay the regular route timings by much more than a few minutes

If you have some lines electrified you can then cascade DMUs, allowing inferior or older types to be withdrawn, or increase capacity on the many lines which require it, especially as Northern have been told they aren't allowed to order new units

I'm a little surprised the plans for Micklefield - Hambleton don't go as far as Selby, only another 4.5 miles so more local services could be operated with EMUs, as well as Church Fenton - Gascoigne Wood, which would be another handy diversionary route between York and Doncaster, avoiding Leeds. Electric locals to Selby and York would be quite convenient for the two East facing bays at Leeds, as well as allowing speedier long distance expresses which wouldn't be as constricted as by slow accelerating DMUs.

Interestingly, other magazines were announcing Network Rail's plan as being to do the core main lines (Great Western and Midland) first, then Cross-Country and Trans-Pennine, then add-ons to enhance the core routes. However there is talk of infill works in Control Period 4 (2009-2014), with the main lines following after 2015 - what the real plan is will be down to the Numpties and the Humphreys.

As a side thought - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7493482.stm