The Hitachi IEP

[arabiandisco]

You can get 73s and mk2s down there:

http://jon-bradley.fotopic.net/p48981292.html

[chriscooper]

If Mk2s will fit, 319s will aswell since they are the same size (the Mk1s, Mk2s and most Mk3 EMUs are all built to the limit of the C1 loading gauge). Apparently the profile of the 313s has nothing to do with the Moorgate tunnels, it's just part of the design. Actually, it makes sence since the 313s have a pretty flat roof compared to other stock, yet it's the centre of the tunnel that has the most clearance, generally where height is a factor trains will have strongly curved roof profiles and be much higher in the middle than at the sides, like tube stock, and a lot of double deck stock.

[mattvince]

Class 319s are the mooted replacement for Class 313s - the suggestion being that they would be reduced to three cars to work Moorgate services. My concerns with using Class 319s is that the horns of the pantograph may not be in gauge - the lower profile of the Class 313s makes losing the head less likely, and whilst a Mark 2 test vehicle might not be too badly affected if it were to lose a ventilator, losing a 'pan' is fairly terminal for an EMU. Questions remain about what would be done with the spare coaches (perhaps inserted into the 455/8s to replace the Class 508 TSOs), and more importantly issues about RVAR compliance and age - put simply, the 319s are fairly knackered as it is, and they are only ten years younger than the 313s. All the solution does is buy the DfT a few more years before having to buy new stock - or more likely cascade other stock to the GN Inner service. Perhaps the DfT should bear in mind that with the emergence of even more newer, faster stock on the East Coast (both IEP and T2015 stock will be quicker than present trains), the 'weak link' in the East Coast will remain with the Inners - and the 319s with their 100mph gearing are not ideal sets for that kind of punishing stop-start duty.

Thameslink is already a two-tier railway - with the predominance of 319/3s on 'inner' duties (Luton-Wimbledon) and 319/4s on 'outers' (Bedford-Brighton). Even with "Key Output Zero" the /3s will stay on Inner duties, the 23 FCC '377s' are set to be deployed on Bedford-Brighton services, along with the 'outer' SouthEastern routes (319s will be used on Sevenoaks trains). One hopes that the DfT realises that two subclasses will be required - if for nothing else but to ensure the good burghers of Flitwick and Hassocks have their First Class. In any case, the lower 'permissible' capacity of 'outer' trains (as more stations fall under PIXC) should compensate for reduced numbers of doors and higher numbers of seats on those trains.

The optimum solution would be to have about four subclasses of the Thameslink 2015 fleet:
Inner - four cars with 'inner' type seating, 3 doors/side
Moorgate - three or six cars, as above
Outer - four cars, 'outer' type seating, 2 doors/side
Express - four to six cars, 'express'/'inter-urban' type seating, 2 doors/side
Bodyshells should be similar in construction for all types, with the same doors, bogies, motors, traction packages and cab equipment, etc., for all, plus maximum standardisation of ancillary components. I would, perhaps, suggest that the cosmetics (and thus aerodynamics) might well be very different for the 'Express' version, and evacuation equipment would be different for the 'Moorgate' version. With all versions dual-voltage, it could be possible to develop some commercial opportunities - for instance using an 'Express' version on a prime train for City-bound business fliers from Gatwick. Such a standardised yet differentiated fleet would replace everything in the Thameslink+Great Northern fleet, allowing 313s and 317s to be retired, 321s to bolster the Great Eastern fleet, 319s to be sent to provide dual-voltage trains for new electrification schemes (or be retired), and the 365s to be sent to another route/area which would benefit from their performance.

[bgstrowger]

The pantograph well is less pronounced on a 313 because of the flatter roof, so I would imagine that the wells on the 313s and 319s are at similar heights from rail level, although not having a Mk3 EMU PMSO diagramme to hand I couldn't confirm.

The 319 TSO(L)s cannot be removed as they contain the MA set, main compressor and battery.

The only danger with creating 3 separate fleets for Thameslink operation is ensuring that the units do not stray away from their designated services. I'm sure a Brighton or Bedford commuter would not appreciate traveling on a unit with low backed or longitudinal seating.

[AlistairW]

Bit off topic, but out of interest how many powered axels are there currently on all these EMU's such as 317's and 319's and would a replacement see an increase?

Cheers,
Ali

[bgstrowger]

The Mk3 based EMUs have 4 powered axles, the PEP derivatives have 8.

How many on the replacement stock will probably depend on the manufacturer. Siemens have 8 powered axles in their Desiros, whereas Bombardier and Alsthom have 12 in their Electrostars and Junipers.

[Pompeyfan]

The only danger with creating 3 separate fleets for Thameslink operation is ensuring that the units do not stray away from their designated services. I'm sure a Brighton or Bedford commuter would not appreciate traveling on a unit with low backed or longitudinal seating.

Southern have four subclasses, and most of them seem to stay as to where they are intended, granted there is not a huge difference between each class, but you still don't get a much variation...

did i read above that FCC are getting class 377's? or is that a typo... would be interesting seeing one in THAT livery...

[bgstrowger]

Ah, but the Southern's 377s have only minor differences in seating, i.e. 2+2 and 3+2. Quite frankly, them 3+2 seats in the Electrostars are the most uncomfortable things I've ever sat on and I've sat on the cobbles at Somerset House watching 2001!

If a dedicated inner suburban fleet is created, it'll most certainly have longitudinal seating to maximise standing space and that is not suitable for long distance commuting.

[Pompeyfan]

Ah, but the Southern's 377s have only minor differences in seating, i.e. 2+2 and 3+2. Quite frankly, them 3+2 seats in the Electrostars are the most uncomfortable things I've ever sat on and I've sat on the cobbles at Somerset House watching 2001!

If a dedicated inner suburban fleet is created, it'll most certainly have longitudinal seating to maximise standing space and that is not suitable for long distance commuting.

Cue somebody mentioning 450's on the pompey direct...

[mattvince]

The 319 TSO(L)s cannot be removed as they contain the MA set, main compressor and battery.

Interesting - that means either a heavy rebuild would be needed to move the equipment to another vehicle (which may well make RVAR apply in full), or the sets would have to be reformed differently - assuming that is possible. The ROSCOs won't like it - as it means investing heavily in stock which will be up to 28 years old when displaced from the Thameslink route. I cannot for the life of me see DfT providing the funding for platform extensions on the Northern City Line - hence a subclass of the T2015 fleet probably remains the best option overall.

A T2015 'Express' fleet would predominantly operate on the Great Northern route services into Kings Cross (Main Line): i.e. fast services to Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn. The option of running the sets onto the Thameslink route would be almost exclusively for fringe-peak services and some off-peak routes where the improved comfort would have commercial benefits, but broadly the Express fleet would be back on the GN by the evening peak. Keeping the subclasses separate will be a challenge, but perhaps one worth it for avoiding a riot (or an Exodus) if a homogeneous fleet were to be imposed. If the latter is to take place, bear in mind that places like Bedford and Luton are not too far from the GN route - assuming the 365s remain, you could see a fundamental shift of passengers (particularly those living between the two routes) onto the GN services into Kings Cross (which would make the present GN overcrowding seem positively spacious, not to mention making a mockery of the whole Thameslink project).

Classes 377 and 458 only have two powered axles on each motor coach (6 powered axles in each 4-car unit). Southern are subleasing up to 23 Class 377s for "Key Output Zero" (March 2009) - whether they receive FCC livery, we'll have to wait and see.

[Pompeyfan]

what is this T2015 you refer to?

[chriscooper]

The pantograph on the 319 when lowered should sit at the same height as those on the 313s. The 313s have Stones-Faiveley pantographs, which were used on most EMUs up to the 90's, and also on all Electric locos up to the 86s (although the design changed somewhat in the 60s). The 319s have a mixture of those, and Brecknell Willis, the latter replacing the Stones-Faiveley as the standard pantograph on UK, and many other countries, electric trains (a rare example of a British design replacing a French design). Both AFAIK have the same envelope when lowered, so if the Stones Faiveley doesn't have problems the Brecknell Willis shouldn't either. The Brecknell Willis would be the most likely pantograph on a new build replacement anyway.

As for the TL2000 trains, I wonder if the best thing would be to have Thameslink as an Inner Suburban/Metro only service. Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn would be served from Kings Cross with 365s and when the time comes, similar designs. Brighton etc would not be served, additional Southern (or whoever it is by then) services would replace the Thameslinks.
Bedford would be the bigger challenge. I'd replace the current 4tph from Brighton to Bedford with a 2tph service from St Pancras to Corby with the same calling pattern to Bedford then all stations using something along the lines of the 185s or "Super Turbostars" (e.g Turbostars with modern EMU like acceleration). Depending on demand, I might keep the Meridien to Corby aswell, and if demand further increases, run it as a 2tph London to London via Leicester loop (going alternate ways), perhaps in conjunction with new stations and increased capacity (4 tracking of the MML, resignalling Corby to Syston Junction) north of Kettering. The big bottleneck would be St Pancras itself with just 4 platforms on the MML side, north of West Hampstead the fast line frequency would be no different to today.

[bgstrowger]

There's plenty of existing designs available for the Thameslink services, so why go to the expense of starting on a blank sheet of paper? For the inner suburban routes, why not another build of 378s or adapting the proposed S-stock design for BR use?

Outer suburban/Express can be covered by the existing 377/350 designs, perhaps with a bit of weight shedding.

Any further news on the rumour in this month's Modern Railways about some 395s moving to GN services?

[mattvince]

As for the TL2000 trains, I wonder if the best thing would be to have Thameslink as an Inner Suburban/Metro only service. Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn would be served from Kings Cross with 365s and when the time comes, similar designs. Brighton etc would not be served, additional Southern (or whoever it is by then) services would replace the Thameslinks.

The problem is that Thameslink at present is very popular for Brighton line commuters - Southern's core Brighton service runs into Victoria (wrong end of town for City types) and London Bridge Low Level (wrong side of the river - especially on a day like today). London Bridge Underground can barely cope at present - platform closures are a daily occurrence in the AM peak, and part of the benefit of Thameslink is to relieve the Northern Line (believe me, a lot of City types travel simply from London Bridge to Bank). The only Southern routes which can go into Thameslink are those from the New Cross Gate direction - anything coming up from Streatham will have to cross SouthEastern at Herne Hill (which is partly why the Wimbledon Loops are set to be terminated at Blackfriars) - and even New Cross Gate down to West Croydon is having Inner suburban capacity moved to the East London Line (which will have access to the eastern end of the City at Shoreditch High Street).

The Great Northern Inners already have a logical destination - Moorgate (Northern City Line). Taking them out renders Moorgate (and thus the heart of the City) completely cut off from the National Rail network - and more pressure put on the Northern Line. Plus the NCL has cross-platform interchange at Highbury & Islington onto the Victoria Line for West End types. There are no other service groups which can go down the NCL - the platforms aren't long enough, it's in the wrong place for main-line interchange, and is too technically different to take main-line stock (you would need to replace the 365s anyway - they lack train-end doors required for Tube routes). Plus there is the challenge of the GN Outers and Kings Cross - with the number of 12-cars on GN Outers set to rapidly increase as 321s become available, platform space in the main shed at Kings Cross will be at a severe premium, especially with ever-enhancing IC East Coast services, probably aided by an influx of new Intercity Express sets (bringing back to topic), consequently there will be no option but to send 'Middles' (Potters Bar/Hatfield/Welwyn GC/Welwyn North/Knebworth callers) and some Peterborough and Cambridge outers down the Thameslink route, just to avoid swamping Kings Cross.

Bedford would be the bigger challenge. I'd replace the current 4tph from Brighton to Bedford with a 2tph service from St Pancras to Corby with the same calling pattern to Bedford then all stations using something along the lines of the 185s or "Super Turbostars" (e.g Turbostars with modern EMU like acceleration). Depending on demand, I might keep the Meridien to Corby aswell, and if demand further increases, run it as a 2tph London to London via Leicester loop (going alternate ways), perhaps in conjunction with new stations and increased capacity (4 tracking of the MML, resignalling Corby to Syston Junction) north of Kettering. The big bottleneck would be St Pancras itself with just 4 platforms on the MML side, north of West Hampstead the fast line frequency would be no different to today.

And you would face a riot. The present 4tph to Bedford are very heavily loaded and very popular - even a 10-car Class 185 set (which would be bonkers anyway with oil at present prices) twice an hour would get swamped. And the four-platform station at St Pancras will not cope. Plus, is there any justification for 8-12tph turning around at Luton/St Albans - running that risks carting fresh air around in the peaks whilst PIXC-breaching Meridians burn oil by the barrel-load trying to run stop-start north of St Albans/Harpenden. And the passengers won't like it - stations like Flitwick won't like losing half their trains, and finding that Wellingborough and Corby types have taken all the seats on the remainder. Plus there is the psychological effect of frequency - if someone misses their train, waiting half-an-hour for the next is a lot different to waiting only fifteen minutes.

And I suspect Javelins on the GN is a malicious rumour. There isn't any use for them, for similar reasons to those which will stop IEPs running to Kings Lynn. Perhaps there will be the option of a few Class 395 worked trains per day, but all the current plans for 12-car operation revolve around Class 365s - the 321s 'backfilling' on 8-car workings. Of course it would be easier to send the 321s to the West Anglia and swap them for 317s, but since when did the word 'easier' have any resonance in the halls of Great Minster House?

[JSReeves86]

Any further news on the rumour in this month's Modern Railways about some 395s moving to GN services?

Just that, a rumor, wont happen.

Everyone is saying they are getting they atm SWT, FCC etc etc, I copy my post in from another forum...
The only time they will go near the LSWR line is being dragged to Ashford Depot, end of. They are 225 kph (140mph) units for HS1 and the classic Kent lines operated by GoVia (London & South Eastern Railway Limited) aka SouthEastern under the IKF (Integrated KENT Franchise) and not South West Trains (Stagecoach). They will have been sized for the LSWR line for the above reason, after all they have to go by rail from Southampton - Ashford so must fit the route. Ok in years to come (20-30) maybe less I suppose they might find use on the LSWR lines but this will only be after they have been replaced on HS1 by something else.