Atomic Systems

where i live First Group operate more than 65% of all the bus services with the remainder split accross a number of smaler operators...
they reently bought out a local outfit and with it improved on the local services operated by FG and by the small aquasition... they provided new routes... additional busses.. replaced the buses of the former operator with newer model buses with the oldest bus being an S Reg...
every bus is generally clean outside as they have invested in a brand new depot within the last 18 months every bus (well everyone i have been on) is clean inside and have had all the cusions replaced/re-covered. and the fares are equal or better than the other local operators. plus the drivers are all friendly.

On the railway side FSR hav invested in the sleeper trains.. they have improved the exterior condition of the 156, 158 and 170 fleets.. with all or atleast 90% having been painted as oposed to stickered. the interiors are always clean with the exception of the 334s which generaly could do with bigger bins... the toilets are generally kept presentable.. the stations are well kept, little if any vandalism and FSr have a specialised staion cleaning team that operate almost daily cleaning and tarting up tired looking stations.

As for Great Western the stock side is down to a number of issues.. FGW inherited a fleet of 143s, 150s, 153s and 158s that were being held together with sticky tape. (slight exageration) they have financed the extension of SPM depot to maintain the DMU fleet. they are financing the refurbishment of the Local fleet.. to a better standard than ONE/Nat Ex have refurbished their 156s and 315s...
They have invested in their own Stock and have set it to use on the Great western.
They attempted to introduce a load of additional stock via the TPx 158s which the DfT then realocated to Northern and EMT (remember the DfT decide everything about the stock) they have hired in locomotives and stock for additional services (last summer maybe didnt work as well as planned) and have used them in summer, and winter to provide extra services as well as providing extra cappacity during blockades.

First Group also own a good chunk of Hull Trains (the Uks first open access operator) so thats not a quick buck unlike a franchised operation.
FG also OWN FGBRf that allows them to move their operators stock cheaper than to hire in locos or drivers from EWS etc. They have invested heavily in new locomotives for FGBRf to meet comitments for Metronet and for coal contracts... not to mention the hundreds of wagons ordered for the Metronet work and the coal workings.

First group have also recently placed their largest ever order for new buses following market reseach that showed that people are looking towards public transport in the fight against emmisions and that junk.


Stagecoach have a 49% share in Virgin... they operated SWT which is the operator for the catchment are for the most wealthy regions of the south west that cover journeys into waterloo... SWT have always had it easy financially... and dont forget they have had numerous strikes due to drivers/guards pay conditions not being met or due to removing staff from work.
they also ceased operations on certain route in order to fly staff to germany to train them on new traction...

they now operate EMT and thats in an awfull mess.. unless yu wan to believe the press news about how 3 months in and EMT is out performing on the connect services (ex Central, ) not that it would be hard to beat Centrals records.


First Group Rail Opperations have invested in the following since privatisation:
Class 175 DMUs
Class 180 DMUs
Class 360 EMUs for GE
Class 222s for HT
Class 185s for FTPx
Class 170s and refurb for FTPx
Refurb of Class 165/166 fleet (ex Thames trains)
Rebuild of HST power cars
Invested in its own HST power cars and Mk. 3 stock
Class 57/6 locomotives to replace ageing class 47 locos for the GW sleeper
Class 66 locomotives for FGBRf
Hundreds of wagons
Reburbishment of HST Carraiges (2x refurbishments)
Refurbishment of sleeper trains (Night Riviera and Scotish Sleeper)
Refurbishment of entire GW local fleet
Refurbishmnt of class 313/317/319/365 for FCC
Upgrading of Hornsey Depot to Do C5 Exams/overhauls
Upgrading of SPM Depot to accomodate DMU fleet
Funding the rebuild/renovation of March Depot for loco exams on class 66s
Partly funding work carried out to St. pancras low Level

there is more but i cant think off the top of my head without sleep...

so what exactly have SWT/Stagecoach done....

Hmm, What have SWT done.
Class 458
Class 450
Class 444
The Desiro order is/was one of the largest single orders in Europe
Class 170
When the 170s didn't prove reliable they swapped for 158s (see below)
Their 159 fleets are 1st and 2nd in the reliability tables.
Class 455 rebuilds (because it pretty much is a rebuild)
Class 158 and 159 refurbs (twice in the case of the 159/0s)
Swiss style Tahrkartplan (sp) on most routes (West of Yeovil is the exception)
Full PIS at every single station they operate.
Island Line refurbs.

n863dwt wrote: First Group Rail Opperations have invested in the following since privatisation:
Class 175 DMUs
Class 180 DMUs
Class 360 EMUs for GE
Class 222s for HT
Class 185s for FTPx
Class 170s and refurb for FTPx
Refurb of Class 165/166 fleet (ex Thames trains)
Rebuild of HST power cars
Invested in its own HST power cars and Mk. 3 stock
Class 57/6 locomotives to replace ageing class 47 locos for the GW sleeper
Class 66 locomotives for FGBRf
Hundreds of wagons
Reburbishment of HST Carraiges (2x refurbishments)
Refurbishment of sleeper trains (Night Riviera and Scotish Sleeper)
Refurbishment of entire GW local fleet
Refurbishmnt of class 313/317/319/365 for FCC
Upgrading of Hornsey Depot to Do C5 Exams/overhauls
Upgrading of SPM Depot to accomodate DMU fleet
Funding the rebuild/renovation of March Depot for loco exams on class 66s
Partly funding work carried out to St. pancras low Level

there is more but i cant think off the top of my head without sleep...

so what exactly have SWT/Stagecoach done....

class 170 DMU for the romsey totton
class 444 EMU 40 odd units
class 450 EMU 127 units, with more on the way (apparntly)
refurbishment of 158 and 159 fleets
conversion of 158 to 159
voyager and pendo feet
sheffield supertram refurbishment (if you want to be picky)
rumors of SWT part payment for double track upgrades on the WoE line
Class 455 refurbishment
Northam depot

it could be argued that some parts of the network are run down, with big cities like portsmouth, then smaller cities like southampton and weymouth. some ares of the network are undesirable, its not all perfect in the south, even though some people think it is.

enotayokel wrote:Hmm, What have SWT done.
Class 458
Class 450
Class 444
The Desiro order is/was one of the largest single orders in Europe
Class 170
When the 170s didn't prove reliable they swapped for 158s (see below)
Their 159 fleets are 1st and 2nd in the reliability tables.
Class 455 rebuilds (because it pretty much is a rebuild)
Class 158 and 159 refurbs (twice in the case of the 159/0s)
Swiss style Tahrkartplan (sp) on most routes (West of Yeovil is the exception)
Full PIS at every single station they operate.
Island Line refurbs.

i think were going a bit too far back with the 458,s but is a valid point.

don't forget CIS on every train?

whats a Tahrkartplan?

EMT. they are slightly different. as everybody has stated, there stock is in a mess at the moment, but i don't think it will take a long time for the stock to be up together and ready to use. and with the branding you can understand why they are embarresed, FG do look a bit logo happy, 150127 has had a temp logo applied, already

The Clockface timetable, with evenly spaced recovery time (as opposed to GNER allowing trains 20 minutes extra to get to the final stop).

I will say FGWs unit refurbs do leave something to be desired. Apart from the first of each, the 158s and 153s are being fitted with seats recovered from Scotrail units. And lets not forget the launch of the 158 complete with open windows (they hadn't fixed or replaced the aircon!)

enotayokel wrote:The Clockface timetable, with evenly spaced recovery time (as opposed to GNER allowing trains 20 minutes extra to get to the final stop).

I will say FGWs unit refurbs do leave something to be desired. Apart from the first of each, the 158s and 153s are being fitted with seats recovered from Scotrail units. And lets not forget the launch of the 158 complete with open windows (they hadn't fixed or replaced the aircon!)

if thats true, thats awfull... i saw 158798 in portsmouth harbour the other day, they don't exactly look like they are likely to encourage people on to trains do they....

anyway... gotta try and keep this a fair and balance discussion, and not just another FGW bashing thread.

i think that a lot of First H&D need a long hard look at and to be interior retouched, some buses seem dark and nasty inside, however, i do like the interiors of the actual first buses, such and the V10Bles. am not too sure on the ex london busses or the ex colchester buses that have just arived.... they look a bit nasty inside, and as for the ex weymouth and manchester buses... they leave something to be desired for.

First Scotrail have refurbished there class 156 and class 158 stock and replaced the North Berwick line with class 322. Upgraded Haymarket TMD refurbishing Aberdeen station as well as work on the Markinch Interchange and also run the trains for SPT, and also reburbished Class 314 and Class 318.