GNER joining forces with Virgin and Stagecoach ECML Bid

karlrestall · Post by **karlrestall** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:11 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6533269.stm

Regards

Karl

andylloyd · Post by **andylloyd** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:46 am

very intresting. I knew GNER wanted to stay in.

Would this do it?

Andy

MoonKid47 · Post by **MoonKid47** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:34 pm

It might keep GNER on their feet, but GNER havnt had the best record so this could either improve or crush the Virgin/Stagecoach bid now.

An interesting turn of events...

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:30 pm

MoonKid47 wrote:It might keep GNER on their feet, but GNER havnt had the best record so this could either improve or crush the Virgin/Stagecoach bid now.

An interesting turn of events...

Haven't GNER been voted one of the UK's best train operators on numerous occasions. I fail to see how they don't have one of the best records. Yes their trains are overcrowded but there’s not much they can do with a limited fleet and limited paths in and out of Kings X. Especially with the likes of Grand Central and Hull Trains using express paths and running 4 coach trains.

I think it’ll make for a very interesting bid, although it certainly won't be the cheapest (or most profitable) for the DfT but is likely to be one of the best for the end passenger and see the highest level of initiative.

Whitemoor · Post by **Whitemoor** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:21 am

i did hear that GNER were only achiving a 75% capicity off london?

I know during peak these trains run realy well loaded (supprising, huh?) and yet during the day, are more or less full anyways...i fail to see where this 75% comes from

Timcourt1 · Post by **Timcourt1** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:01 am

Slightly off topic but I do hope they keep the 225's in Blue!

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:58 am

Didn't the BBC release information saying most trains leaving London (including the X) are over capacity at peak times, I remember the Newcastle service running at around 160% of capacity or something like that.

75% off peak is believable, on-peak I doubt that. The route can certainly be a nice money earner though.

I really think this franchise should be offered as a 15 or 20 year franchise, it’ll help encourage more long term investment from the operator. Just a thought, especially as both the HST's and 225's will need to be replaced within that time period.

Tim - I'm sure if Virgin are supplying the financial support for what in general is perceived to be a good service the first thing we'll see is the red and silver paint coming out. Then again, Virgin may look to replace the entire fleet? Pendolinos and Voyagers anybody? Especially if the Pendolinos production line is re-opened. Who knows though, the 91’s still have 15 - 20 years in them and the HST’s around 10 I’d hope.

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:27 am

As I have said before, and will say again, the chance of the the 225 fleet being replaced as part of the new franchise is remote. They have just been refurbished to a very high standard and are very much suited to the ECML.

Plus I wouldn't mind betting that the leasing cost would be reduced to stave off any threat of a new build fleet displacing them.

Regards,

Dan

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:52 am

Tim - c'mon, you know you want a new project...

75% may be an average load-factor across all services, which for an IC operation is comparable to the stated mean load-factor for the TGV (~71%) and exceeds the ICE (~50%). Of course this is only an average, so will disguise some early morning and late evening services that may run with low loadings, and will also hide the overcrowding on the busiest services.

Rolling stock replacement will be affected by the HST2/IEP/whatever scheme/program/specification/procurement/thingy, not least as the prototype or pre-series sets will be tested by the ICEC franchise. Certainly there is hope that the HSTs and IC225s will last - unlike certain other HST refurbishments, the GNER sets are being properly re-done, both interior-wise and below the floors. Pendos would, however, give an advantage on the fastest Anglo-Scottish trains, where their tilt capability can really come into play north of Darlington.

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:23 pm

Tilt would make a difference north of Darlington but I doubt NR will stump up the track upgrade costs and like Dan said, its unlikely to happen in a 7 year franchise, the MK4's are too suited to the job to loose.

If the capacity is available it would be nice to see the new franchise utilise some of redundant HST sets - on top of GNER’s recent additions to their HST fleet. Saying that nothing will ever beat the ride quality of the Eurostars! IMO)

Matt - I don't know if you're referring to FGW's MK3 upgrade program or someone else’s but I read that FGW's upgrade is costing more per coach than the GNER’s MK3 upgrade. Not that that makes FGW’s any better for the passengers who are enduring an airline type service without the speed.

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:28 pm

There aren't any redundant HST sets per sé. MML's spares have gone to GNER and FGW.

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:38 pm

allypally wrote:There aren't any redundant HST sets per sé. MML's spares have gone to GNER and FGW.

What about all the Ex. Virgin ones?

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:52 pm

First Great Western have taken the majority I believe?

Also Midland Mainline I think had one set as did GNER?

There might be a few individual carriages left in store, however.

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:31 pm

I stand corrected AllyPally you're right, especially when Grand Central start using them as well. I guess the only spare ones now are currently with MML.

Looks like it'l be difficult for them to expand their fleet without investment in new trains then?

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:58 pm

Alistair - From rumours I have been hearing, the FGW sets have had very little done structurally other than spot corrosion removal on the underframes. What that means is that in ten years time, the sets will be thoroughly knackered. As to the cost, I believe the FGW fleet is being done for £63m (£1.2m/trainset) whilst the GNER work is costing £45m (£3.5m/trainset) - figures published on the two operator's websites.