Who Likes Flying Scotsman

[oldrocker]

Oh God, not again ?

Look, the average punter in the street doesn't know the difference between the locomotive and the 'legend' that was the 10 a.m. departure from Kings Cross.

So many times have picture captions been wrong but this has been gone into many other times on these forums.

Suffice to say that as a 60 y.o. died in the wool steam fan, given the chance and a cutting torch, I would love to see Flying Scotsman again !

[staticxfreak]

As a diesel fanatic, I'd have to say I'd rather have Mallard than FS.

If I was to be honest however, I'd say I don't really care about kettles and I'd take a Deltic of any numeration over both Mallard and FS.

[arabiandisco]

As a diesel fanatic, I'd have to say I'd rather have Mallard than FS.

If I was to be honest however, I'd say I don't really care about kettles and I'd take a Deltic of any numeration over both Mallard and FS.

The best east coast express machine ever devised was recently saved thanks in part to a sizeable contribution from users of this site... Though the prototype deltic is pretty monsterous too (I love that american style big headlight).

Not relevant to 60103, but I just wanted to make that point.

[southcoasttrains]

To be honest I prefer unrebuild Westcountry kettles, other than that, Freight.

[demonshadow]

my 2 cents/pence worth.

Although not really a fan of Scotsman or Mallard personally, i agree that shes proberly going to come out in better nick this time then she has been before in preservation (well at least i hope anyway) really i'd rather have 61572, or out of scrapped locos one or both of the P1's or Peppercorn A1 60114 W. P. Allen (for family connections, wish i could of been there when they named her after my great grandfather, and am actually jealous that he and my great uncle got to drive her up and down KX platform)

also for 5 days running (if i remember correctly from the list of her workings) 60114 worked the 1000 down Flying Scotsman in place of 4472 aswell as also working the up FS several times, and replaced i think at least one engine on the service midway.

Cheers from Mike

[JonathonAG]

Well, my thoughts might as well be included lol.

Flying Scotsman.....No. 1472 when first outshopped and only given the name "Flying Scotsman" due to the Wembley Exhibition, at which their was renumbering in the LNER which made her No. 4472. Claimed to be the first locomotive to reach 100mph ( although I do believe 3440 could equally have been able to do it...abliet 20 years earlier ), first to run Non-Stop on the London - Edinburgh section of the ECML....and in preservation has toured the globe....visiting the USA and Australia. I do love the locomotive...used to be one of my favourites ( still is in some respects ) and does look like a beauty....except with those "dumbo ears" in LNER livery ( which I accept...yes, I did release an MSTS reskin of this version ).....but if the deflectors work, and keep her running, then I say it should be allowed although I would like periods with them removed or such.

But lets get down to some facts shall we?

100mph was reached by City Of Truro first, I am a very far up northerner and so the LNER and LMS are my territory....but I do give into the account that the GWR 4-4-0 did achive the ton first. And I have to say, she is anything but soft. A powerful but yet elegent and beautiful pice of enginnering marvelence.
World tours did contrivute to 4472's fame...but how did this happen. It visisted USA because it had an owner who *thought* he had enough money to take it on a whirlwind tour of the USA and then return it to the USA.....and as much as I hate to say it, as I am glad to Alan Pegler for saving the loco....but the idea was very stupid. Now, why did it visit Australia?? Surely most people know that 4472 was the SECOND choice that the Ozzie's had made to which locomotive to get to visit for the bi-centneray of settlement in the continent. Mallard was the locomotive they really wanted, but when they approached the NRM, they were declined. So Bill McAlpine kindly offerred his 4472 instead ( I'm sure he offerred, anybody got any more on this? ). If 4472 is as popular as some make it out to be, why was 4468 wanted? She has the ultimate fame for steam speed...something 4472 hasn't...so I believe that Mallard is still as popular as Flying Scotsman....the reason it isn't in steam you ask?? Why overhaul a locomotive not steam in a decade when you can overhaul one which has just come out of traffic which is just as popular? Answers on a postcard please

Now yes, I love the Flying Scotsman.....but yes I believe that her fame has been overrated. I still watch over and over again a tape released over a decade ago about 4472's tour down under....when watching this at 4 years old affiliated my love with 4472 itself and also Austrlian Steam.....but I find that watching the sections of NSW 3801, VR D3-639, VR K-153 and VR R761 ( Along with NSW 1210 and 3112 ) more interesting, because these are what have fame, but show it. They're power, their speed, their looks are what are keeping their records going because they are continually proving it today. NSW 1210 and 3112, 1210 is a very old locomotive...oldest operating in Australia ( at the time...not sure if it still runs now ) while 3112 is a tank engine...the Ozzie equivilent of....say.....41312. These two locomotives....to be allowed out onto the mainline and commit high speed runnings are what make them famous, because they are looked upon in such a light that they are believed that they can still work as well as when newly made...and they prove this. Look at 4472. Due to it's treatment in the past decade with FS Ltd. , it was never living up to it's fame. Like all locos, it was restricted in speed on the main line whenever running....and the amount of time it was not running due to failure was very concerning....enough to tarnish it's name.

Now, I ask you this, would you rather see an over-rated locomotive?? Or one, which is known...not as much, but yet can match it? Would you rather see 4472 running from York to Scarborough, or would you rather see a Pannier Tank working hard with 4 Mk1's on the Swansea - Cardiff main line? ( last example just made up....there is probably a better line to hold such a railtour on ). I for one would rather watch the Pannier. It has earned it's reputation of being a strong, speedy little tank engine without having the break any record or tour the world.....the class have earned their right by dontinually doing their little odd jobs that they were desinged for......much like most other classes of locomotives in preservation....the 80xxx's, the J36's, the terriers etc.... .

A bit long winded but it proves a point....and also, I voted yes in this poll....as I said, I do like 4472

EDIT: Spelling errors and a few words were missing before

[daandmda]

Well, my thoughts might as well be included lol.

Flying Scotsman.....No. 1472 when first outshopped and only given the name "Flying Scotsman" due to the Wembley Exhibition, at which their was renumbering in the LNER which made her No. 4472. Claimed to be the first locomotive to reach 100mph ( although I do believe 3440 could equally have been able to do it...abliet 20 years earlier ), first to run Non-Stop on the London - Edinburgh section of the ECML....and in preservation has toured the globe....visiting the USA and Australia. I do love the locomotive...used to be one of my favourites ( still is in some respects ) and does look like a beauty....except with those "dumbo ears" in LNER livery ( which I accept...yes, I did release an MSTS reskin of this version ).....but if the deflectors work, and keep her running, then I say it should be allowed although I would like periods with them removed or such.

But lets get down to some facts shall we?

100mph was reached by City Of Truro first, I am a very far up northerner and so the LNER and LMS are my territory....but I do give into the account that the GWR 4-4-0 did achive the ton first. And I have to say, she is anything but soft. A powerful but yet elegent and beautiful pice of enginnering marvelence.
World tours did contrivute to 4472's fame...but how did this happen. It visisted USA because it had an owner who *thought* he had enough money to take it on a whirlwind tour of the USA and then return it to the USA.....and as much as I hate to say it, as I am glad to Alan Pegler for saving the loco....but the idea was very stupid. Now, why did it visit Australia?? Surely most people know that 4472 was the SECOND choice that the Ozzie's had made to which locomotive to get to visit for the bi-centneray of settlement in the continent. Mallard was the locomotive they really wanted, but when they approached the NRM, they were declined. So Bill McAlpine kindly offerred his 4472 instead ( I'm sure he offerred, anybody got any more on this? ). If 4472 is as popular as some make it out to be, why was 4468 wanted? She has the ultimate fame for steam speed...something 4472 hasn't...so I believe that Mallard is still as popular as Flying Scotsman....the reason it isn't in steam you ask?? Why overhaul a locomotive not steam in a decade when you can overhaul one which has just come out of traffic which is just as popular? Answers on a postcard please

Now yes, I love the Flying Scotsman.....but yes I believe that her fame has been overrated. I still watch over and over again a tape released over a decade ago about 4472's tour down under....when watching this at 4 years old affiliated my love with 4472 itself and also Austrlian Steam.....but I find that watching the sections of NSW 3801, VR D3-639, VR K-153 and VR R761 ( Along with NSW 1210 and 3112 ) more interesting, because these are what have fame, but show it. They're power, their speed, their looks are what are keeping their records going because they are continually proving it today. NSW 1210 and 3112, 1210 is a very old locomotive...oldest operating in Austrlia ( at the time...not sure if it still runs now ) while 3112 is a tank engine...the Ozzie equivilent of....say.....41312. These two locomotives....to be allowed out onto the mainline and commit high speed runnings are what make them famous, because they are looked upon in such a light that they are believed that they can still work as well as when newly made...and they prove this. Look at 4472. Due to it's treatment in the past decade with FS Ltd. , it was never living up to it's fame. Like all locos, it was restricted in speed on the main line whenever running....and the amount of time it was running due to failure was very concerning....enough to tarnish it's name.

Now, I ask you this, would you rather see an over-rated locomotive?? Or one, which is known...not as much, but yet can match it? Would you rather see 4472 running from York to Scarborough, or would you rather see a Pannier Tank working hard with 4 Mk1's on the Swansea - Cardiff main line? ( last example just made up....there is probably a better line to hold such a railtour on ). I for one would rather watch the Pannier. It has earned it's reputation of being a strong, speedy little tank engine without having the break any record or tour the world.....the class have earned their right by dontinually doing their little odd jobs that they were desinged for......much like most other classes of locomotives in preservation....the 80xxx's, the J36's, the terriers etc.... .

A bit long winded but it proves a point....and also, I voted yes in this poll....as I said, I do like 4472

Some very very very good points, best post on here so far I think

[MuzTrem]

100mph was reached by City Of Truro first, I am a very far up northerner and so the LNER and LMS are my territory....but I do give into the account that the GWR 4-4-0 did achive the ton first.

I can believe that 3440 is capable of 100mph, but we will never know for certain if she did.

World tours did contrivute to 4472's fame...but how did this happen. It visisted USA because it had an owner who *thought* he had enough money to take it on a whirlwind tour of the USA and then return it to the USA.....and as much as I hate to say it, as I am glad to Alan Pegler for saving the loco....but the idea was very stupid.

I think you are being rather unfair to Mr. Peglar here. The British government did promise him financial help, but didn't give him any. Indeed, they actively discouraged major firms from signing up to the second tour because they thought that the use of a steam engine made Britain look old-fashioned! The other factor you must remember regarding the US tour was that BR were making life very difficult for Alan Pegler, and his agreement to run 4472 on the main line would expire in 1971. The US offered far more opportunities for the engine.

Now, why did it visit Australia?? Mallard was the locomotive they really wanted, but when they approached the NRM, they were declined. So Bill McAlpine kindly offerred his 4472 instead ( I'm sure he offerred, anybody got any more on this? ). If 4472 is as popular as some make it out to be, why was 4468 wanted? She has the ultimate fame for steam speed...something 4472 hasn't...so I believe that Mallard is still as popular as Flying Scotsman....

Don't forget that the Aus Steam '88 was organised by enthusiasts, to whom 4468 is famous because of the speed record. But ask a random selection of Joe Publics, and unless theu've been to the NRM they probably won't have heard of Mallard. If they've heard of any engine, it's Scotsman.

[arabiandisco]

Mallard was, and remains even now that FS is NRM property, the star exhibit at York. My parents who are not remotely interested in railways, knew about it's speed record.

Ask a random selection of joe publics to name a steam engine and they will certainly not say "flying scotsman". They'll say Tho**s. The name "flying scotsman" is very famous, but I think that's because of the London - Edinburgh train more than the locomotive.

[daandmda]

Mallard was, and remains even now that FS is NRM property, the star exhibit at York. My parents who are not remotely interested in railways, knew about it's speed record.

Ask a random selection of joe publics to name a steam engine and they will certainly not say "flying scotsman". They'll say Tho**s. The name "flying scotsman" is very famous, but I think that's because of the London - Edinburgh train more than the locomotive.

What is Tho**s?

[arabiandisco]

A famous, fictional, steam engine. With a face. And Blue Paint.

[daandmda]

A famous, fictional, steam engine. With a face. And Blue Paint.

So why did two stars replace a and s ?

[JonathonAG]

it's becoming a sort of swear word. A swear word is a disgusting word which nobody likes....and when it comes to Thomas The Tank....some people are using that same description for the little blue tank engine lol

[MuzTrem]

Mallard was, and remains even now that FS is NRM property, the star exhibit at York.

Even before 4472 was purchased for York, the most asked question at the NRM (apart from "where are the loos?") was "where is Flying Scotsman?" And certainly in recent years, I believe that the locomotive has become more famous than the train, because these days the "Flying Scotsman" title has become little more than a footnote in the timetable and the 10am from Kings Cross looks just like any other GNER service. And when was the last time the train got a mention on breakfast news?

[arabiandisco]

Mallard was, and remains even now that FS is NRM property, the star exhibit at York.

Even before 4472 was purchased for York, the most asked question at the NRM (apart from "where are the loos?") was "where is Flying Scotsman?" And certainly in recent years, I believe that the locomotive has become more famous than the train, because these days the "Flying Scotsman" title has become little more than a footnote in the timetable and the 10am from Kings Cross looks just like any other GNER service. And when was the last time the train got a mention on breakfast news?

But without the 10am from KX, the locomotive would just be named after a racehorse. Having a locomotive and a train sharing a name was a PR masterstroke by the LNER (but not as good as the "summer comes soonest in the south" effort from the SR), and that symmetry probably plays a big role in the fame of both.

The name "Flying Scotsman" would probably be remembered and celebrated, regardless of whether there had been a locomotive named after it, in much the same way that "Bournemouth Belle", "Cornish Rivera Limited" and "Thames Clyde Express" are. OK they're not a part of public knowledge, and FGW don't put "Route of the Cornish Riviera" branding on their carriages (and I believe that GNER's invoking of the FS brand also plays a part in sustaining the "legend"), but the 10am to Edinburgh is what made FS what it is today.

I suppose you could make a comparison to the West Coast equivalent - "Royal Scot", which simply hasn't got the same sparkle, despite there being a locomotive with the same name. Probably because the name FS is just a better name than Royal Scot!