Bye Bye GNER

[arabiandisco]

Don't give southern the credit for the new stock. Connex had ordered it (and they did it only because there was no choice in the matter...). Though the southern franchise isn't too bad, really. Their other franchise (Thameslink) was pretty dire though.

I don't use SET much, but how does it compare to the dark days of Southeastern (when the SRA was running the show)?

If GNER don't keep the ECML franchise, I reckon National Express would do a decent job of it.

[Elojikal]

In the 8 months its been private again and GoVia have been running the SE franchise, they've ballsed it up no end!

Look at what Govia has done with Southern. They have turned it around from the mess Connex left. They have introduced new rolling stock, improved reliability, introduced new routes, refurbishing new stock, and still have plans for the future.

Their plan for SET is the same. It will take a while to sort the mess out, once that has been done, they will do the same as they did with Southern. A few of the bigger managers have gone over to SET from Southern to help achieve this.

Govia are one of the last remaining bidders for the west midlands franchise, and if they got that, they would not get the GNER franchise; however, if they did not win the west midlands, i am sure they would put a big bid in for the GNER franchise.

What a load of utter rubbish.

1) The Electrostars were ordered by Connex for both their Central and South Eastern franchises. Govia inherited the order. The interiors of the last Electrostars to be delivered with the newer Southern specifications are actually noticably inferior to the original order of Electrostars.

2) The new trains HAD to be ordered as part of a mandated replacement of old slam door stock. As all operators running slam door stock were required to do. And these orders were placed before Govia ever came along. Do you believe all of Southern's publicity just like they do?

3) Connex South Central had the most reliable fleet of trains in the country in their allocation of 4-CIGs.

4) A lot of the mess that Connex left behind as you put it was caused by the network related problems that were experienced by all operators as a result of Railtrack's incompetence. As the network situation has improved so has the reliability and puntuality of south central trains - and all the other TOCs.

5) Compare Southern's refurbishment of their 455 fleet to that of South West Trains. It's like night and day.

6) Connex ensured that a service had a train of the appropriate length. Southern continue to run trains short of the required number of carriages. I had to stand the entire journey from London Victoria to Brighton a month or two back because they had put on a six car service when at least eight or nine were required. This is the NORM. Say what you will about Connex nobody ever had to stand all the entire journey with them because they intentionally ran trains short to cut costs.

7) Overcrowding has got worse under Southern. That's a fact.

The period over which the south eastern franchise was under government control saw all the mess cleared up. Now it's messy again but don't worry Govia will fix it? You had to go back to go forwards? Weird logic.

Govia's record speaks for itself. Thames Trains and Thameslink. They only got South Eastern because the SRA/DfT wanted a more joined up approach. I can't wait for the day both the South Central and South Eastern franchises come up for grabs again and SWT hopefully makes a bid and wins them.

Of course that would require the treasury to think of the public and not its coffers.

[BR7MT]

5) Compare Southern's refurbishment of their 455 fleet to that of South West Trains. It's like night and day.

Right down to fitting the same PIS as is fitted to the 458's...

I know that the 465 refurbishment and traction package upgrade was being pushed by the owners during the SRA's time in charge of SET, so I expect that any balls up now will be due to Govia.

Regards,

Dan

[metromuppet]

7) Overcrowding has got worse under Southern. That's a fact.

Yes, it has. Do you know why? I doubt you do. Because more people are going by train, that is a FACT.

As for lack of carrages, sometimes some trains need more seats in. But Southern are running more services then Connex did. Also, things do not always work, which has a knock on effect with other services.

Connex ran 4 car trains off peak on the Brighton Express. Southern run 6 car trains off peak.

Connex ran 8 car trains in the peak. Southern run 9 or 12 car trains in the peak.

[Elojikal]

7) Overcrowding has got worse under Southern. That's a fact.

Yes, it has. Do you know why? I doubt you do. Because more people are going by train, that is a FACT.

As for lack of carrages, sometimes some trains need more seats in. But Southern are running more services then Connex did. Also, things do not always work, which has a knock on effect with other services.

Connex ran 4 car trains off peak on the Brighton Express. Southern run 6 car trains off peak.

Connex ran 8 car trains in the peak. Southern run 9 or 12 car trains in the peak.

On the core Victoria to Brighton route Passenger numbers have not risen substantially since Southern took over from Connex. This line largely reached capacity in the early years of this century and the only difference is the absurd decision for the Brighton Express service to stop at Clapham Junction which dumps a load of extra passengers onto this service rather than them having used the more local services to East Croydon as before. As I understand it that decision is to do TfL though.

Now your point about the lengths of trains - Southern do run six car trains in the peaks. Starting after 1600 a 6-car trains runs down to Brighton from Victoria and attaches itself to another 3-car train. This then runs back up to Victoria and attaches itself to another 3-car formation to form a 12-car service. All very well but the peak is already well under way after 1600 and anyway the 6-car trains are not even enough to cope with the off peak numbers as you can see by passengers getting on at East Croydon having to stand the remainder of the way to Victoria. Six cars is too short, simple as that. But Southern do it because they want to be hauling the most minimal amount of air around as possible.

This of course leads to the idiotic idea of forming main line commuter services out of 3-car units. A regular 12-car Electrostar train formed of 4-car units with standard 2+2 seating has seating for 726 people. The rush hour services Southern use have high density 3+2 seating. Despite this a 12-car Electrostar formed of 3-car units with 3+2 seating only has seating for (by my calculations) 704 people. Despite the high density seating this is actually a reduction in capacity! Why? Because so much space is wasted on additional cabs and disabled toilet/bike spaces. It's a complete and utter waste of space. It may save Southern money but it does no favours to passengers.

Compare this to the old 4-CIGs which in a 12-car formation had seating for 702 people despite having substantial amounts of space taken up by generous first class saloon accomodation and large guards areas. Despite the high density seating a Southern 12-car Electrostar service formed of 3-car units is actually less efficient in its use of space than the old CIG stock!

But the worst of it comes when you then compare the Southern Electrostar formations to the old VEP formations. Again despite generous first class accomodation and guards areas a 12-car VEP formation formed of 4-car units has seating for 906 people. That's 202 more seats than you will find on the 12-car Electrostar services. And they were a damn sight more comfortable. Both Connex and Southern ran these 12-car 4-VEP services during the peak hours and I know this because I travelled on them during the peaks more than a few times.

This is essentially what my problem with Southern comes down to. For the sake of saving money during the day they compromise the amount of seating capacity available during the peak hours which makes the overcrowding situation worse. Forming rush hour services of 3-car units is just plain stupid and for Brighton to London services it's not particularly great during the off-peak either. They no longer have the VEPs which is not their fault but If they at least tried to run sensible formations of Electrostar units on the Brighton Express service and tried to seat as many as they actually could, like they do on the rush hour Coastway services from London then I'd be a lot more forgiving.

[n863dwt]

In the 8 months its been private again and GoVia have been running the SE franchise, they've ballsed it up no end!

Look at what Govia has done with Southern. They have turned it around from the mess Connex left. They have introduced new rolling stock, improved reliability, introduced new routes, refurbishing new stock, and still have plans for the future.

Their plan for SET is the same. It will take a while to sort the mess out, once that has been done, they will do the same as they did with Southern. A few of the bigger managers have gone over to SET from Southern to help achieve this.

Govia are one of the last remaining bidders for the west midlands franchise, and if they got that, they would not get the GNER franchise; however, if they did not win the west midlands, i am sure they would put a big bid in for the GNER franchise.

What a load of utter rubbish.

1) The Electrostars were ordered by Connex for both their Central and South Eastern franchises. Govia inherited the order. The interiors of the last Electrostars to be delivered with the newer Southern specifications are actually noticably inferior to the original order of Electrostars.

2) The new trains HAD to be ordered as part of a mandated replacement of old slam door stock. As all operators running slam door stock were required to do. And these orders were placed before Govia ever came along. Do you believe all of Southern's publicity just like they do?

3) Connex South Central had the most reliable fleet of trains in the country in their allocation of 4-CIGs.

4) A lot of the mess that Connex left behind as you put it was caused by the network related problems that were experienced by all operators as a result of Railtrack's incompetence. As the network situation has improved so has the reliability and puntuality of south central trains - and all the other TOCs.

5) Compare Southern's refurbishment of their 455 fleet to that of South West Trains. It's like night and day.

6) Connex ensured that a service had a train of the appropriate length. Southern continue to run trains short of the required number of carriages. I had to stand the entire journey from London Victoria to Brighton a month or two back because they had put on a six car service when at least eight or nine were required. This is the NORM. Say what you will about Connex nobody ever had to stand all the entire journey with them because they intentionally ran trains short to cut costs.

7) Overcrowding has got worse under Southern. That's a fact.

The period over which the south eastern franchise was under government control saw all the mess cleared up. Now it's messy again but don't worry Govia will fix it? You had to go back to go forwards? Weird logic.

Govia's record speaks for itself. Thames Trains and Thameslink. They only got South Eastern because the SRA/DfT wanted a more joined up approach. I can't wait for the day both the South Central and South Eastern franchises come up for grabs again and SWT hopefully makes a bid and wins them.

Of course that would require the treasury to think of the public and not its coffers.

Amen..
i used to live in gravesend.. and connex wa sour only option for long distance travel apart from to drive...
and ok maybe they were slow now and again.. but they always ran the srvices...
when the SRA/SEET began operation in the first 6 weeks i saw more tains canceled than under connex and it was the sam einfrastucture.. the same trains.. the same people mintaining them...

as you have said the problem was down to tthe standard of the network that was left followng railtracks collapse.

[n863dwt]

Don't give southern the credit for the new stock. Connex had ordered it (and they did it only because there was no choice in the matter...). Though the southern franchise isn't too bad, really. Their other franchise (Thameslink) was pretty dire though.

I don't use SET much, but how does it compare to the dark days of Southeastern (when the SRA was running the show)?

If GNER don't keep the ECML franchise, I reckon National Express would do a decent job of it.

on the subject of the ECML Franchise..
i was discussing the franchise options with a chap on here... on msn.. and while we were chatting about who would get what franchise.. the plain truth is that you have First Group verus Virgin and NX for cross country...
you have First Group Versus Arriva (iirc) and NX for the east midlands franchise

and i think given time you will have First vs. virgin(depends on the xc franchise) vs. NX for the east coast.

i think first group will make a good go of any franchise they win however they are gonna face problems with the compotition comisn cos all these franchises cross inot other FG controled franchises which "would lead to a substantial lessening of competition"
and lets be honest the only franchise thst NX did anything good with was MML... and do you really wanna see your trains all over the country covered in ONE livery cos i will bet that that is the choice for the intigrated NX Rail livery

[johncard]

do you really wanna see your trains all over the country covered in ONE livery cos i will bet that that is the choice for the intigrated NX Rail livery

With or without the colour boards? The GNER fleet would look nice without.

Talking of GNER, this morning in the rush hour I saw 3 consecutive southbound trains in the space of about 5 minutes - a Voyager followed by 2 225s, the first being....err..... double-tailed - I suspect that someone was late for work today

John

[qzdcg8]

If Virgin got ECML - why wouldn't they use Pendolinos? The ECML is electrified and from an absolute speed perspective the Pendos cannot be beaton - space wise they're a bit tighter than the old Mk4 loco hauled - but take it from someone has spent ten thousand quid on WCML train tickets in the last 15 months - the Pendos are EXCELLENT.

[n863dwt]

If Virgin got ECML - why wouldn't they use Pendolinos? The ECML is electrified and from an absolute speed perspective the Pendos cannot be beaton - space wise they're a bit tighter than the old Mk4 loco hauled - but take it from someone has spent ten thousand quid on WCML train tickets in the last 15 months - the Pendos are EXCELLENT.

probably cos All the pendolinos are alocated for use on the WCML and their use is gonna get heavier and heavier especially if they get the 2 extra carraiges per unit.

not to mention the reason the 390's have the speed is cos of the tilt which allows them to maintain their speed.. the ECML doesnt have the clearance for the 390's tilting..

if your talking new units i doubt the DfT woul dbe happy about the cost..