Bye Bye GNER

johncard · Post by **johncard** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:32 pm

charlierc wrote:FirstGroup: Hull Trains and TPE

and FCC to Peterborough!

Orinoco999 · Post by **Orinoco999** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:10 pm

jennings wrote:A 225 set in First Neon livery ...

Yeah, here's hoping First get it.

Although I wouldn't object if Virgin got it instead.

Orinoco999 · Post by **Orinoco999** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:13 pm

proposing HST replacement with Voyagers,

In my experience, Voyagers are vastly superior to the HSTs, and that comes from a dedicated HST fan.

johncard · Post by **johncard** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:26 pm

I vote for SBB CFF FFS

On sorry, they're not even bidding are they

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:26 pm

Voyagers are too small with not enough luggage space to operate to the seaside as they do - that's where they majorly lose out!

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:50 pm

Daniel - I believe it's an issue involving the ORR that NR cannot be owner and operator, except for those trains which are directly related to the upkeep and maintenance of the railway. If NR were to become owner and operator (of presently-franchised TOCs), then the likes of Hull Trains and EWS would have a good case to take to the Office of Fair Trading, if not Strasbourg, as there would be a conflict of interest - the Open Access operator being given paths and being regulated by a competing operator. Of course, DfT would be in a pretty pickle with the likes of Hull Trains and Grand Central if they were to do a Connex SouthEastern on GNER - as it would be one part of Government (the ORR) granting paths to a competitor of another part of Government (a DfT run ICEC). Any moves by DfT to restrain HT/GC would bring in another part of Government (the OFT). And writing a report lambasting the whole exercise would be yet another part of Government (the National Audit Office).

It's been predicted for a while - although the real concern is if First throw in the towel on Great Western - whilst FCC, SET and SWT can probably (just about) meet their terms of franchise, FGW is a more marginal operation with a huge regional network and atrocious performance figures. If FGW quit, then serious questions will have to be asked of this Government and the Department for Transport. It is easy to pass off one failed franchise as an isolated case - however if more than one fails, that raises the distinct possibility that the whole franchising process has failed. The present system is more about who has the catalogue with the best numbers in it, rather than getting decent operators to run franchises well, letting them take a lead on reducing the industry's costs, rather than forcing them to sign up to specific cash values - which five or ten years down the line may be completely wrong. If they really want a fair, honest and transparent method of getting money out of the industry, avoiding set values, then a sliding-scale proportion of operating profit (scaled on the ratio of profit to turnover) would be easier for everyone.

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:51 pm

With any luck GNER will get back in, but with a more realistic premium payment profile. But I wouldn't mind seeing Stagecoach get it, or Virgin Trains for that matter, just so long as it isn't First Group.

Regards,

Dan

thenudehamster · Post by **thenudehamster** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:50 pm

Of course what the whole useless setuip needs is this ludicrous 'licence bidding war' chucking out the window. Have each 'bidder' submit the equivalent of a Cost-Benefit Analysis, projecting revenues, required subsidy, service levels and the like, then choose the one most likely to produce the best combination of service and profit, and tax the profits with the usual Corporation Tax and other profts related taxes. Probably make just as much money from the good ones, and cost just as much to support the poor ones, and be a darned sight more popular. Still, what do I know? I only travel on the things, and quite honestly if Virgin's Cross-Country services are anything to go by, they'd be the worst bunch to operate the ECML. Their Voyagers are slow, too small, overcrowded, noisy and late.[/]
've never yet been on one from Basingstoke to New Street or Derby that's arrived on time, and usually had to stand for half the journey home - which is why I've switched to the longer, but more efficient MML.
If SWT's parent (is that Stagecoach?) were to win, I could see it being an effective operation, too.

allypally · Post by **allypally** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:51 am

The Bournemouth Voyagers tend to run so far over such congested lines that they are inevitably late by the end of it, or so it seems. HSTs were the same when they did it.

steve74 · Post by **steve74** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

thenudehamster wrote:Of course what the whole useless setuip needs is this ludicrous 'licence bidding war' chucking out the window. Have each 'bidder' submit the equivalent of a Cost-Benefit Analysis, projecting revenues, required subsidy, service levels and the like, then choose the one most likely to produce the best combination of service and profit, and tax the profits with the usual Corporation Tax and other profts related taxes. Probably make just as much money from the good ones, and cost just as much to support the poor ones, and be a darned sight more popular. Still, what do I know? I only travel on the things, and quite honestly if Virgin's Cross-Country services are anything to go by, they'd be the worst bunch to operate the ECML. Their Voyagers are slow, too small, overcrowded, noisy and late.[/]
've never yet been on one from Basingstoke to New Street or Derby that's arrived on time, and usually had to stand for half the journey home - which is why I've switched to the longer, but more efficient MML.
If SWT's parent (is that Stagecoach?) were to win, I could see it being an effective operation, too.

Yeah, Stagecoach run SWT, and have a 49% (I think) stake in Virgin Trains too.

jbilton · Post by **jbilton** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:14 am

Hi
Not sure about the railways...but Stagecoach certainly now run the buses in Lincolnshire.
They've removed a lot of services, that the local people used and loved.....but they have just made Â£77 Million profit....so its not all bad news for Stagecoach share holders.
Mind you I don't think any of them live in Lincolnshire....or certainly catch public buses...

Still not to worry....because the government are planning to close all the local post offices too.
What a way to run a country.
Cheers
Jon

thelondontube · Post by **thelondontube** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:00 am

MORE proof that selling off these franchises isn't good for anyone except Mr. Blair! GNER are a reasonable operator, but price their tickets so stupidly high (much like First Group).
So theres not a hope we'll end up with the brilliant situation we ended up with when Connex were booted? The time under SET saw a massive improvement in service in Kent and Sussex, both in terms of train running and staff and safety. In the 8 months its been private again and GoVia have been running the SE franchise, they've ballsed it up no end!
What a nice dream it would be if we woke up tomorrow and found that GNER had gone public, like SET did!

Shame it won't ever happen, eh?

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:26 am

To be brutally honest - it couldn't really get any worse with Connex South East.

The reason why GNER fares are high at the moment was because of this stupid high premium payment - they then skewed the fare charging system to try and make sure they could meet those obligations.

Regards,

Dan

n863dwt · Post by **n863dwt** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:48 am

arabiandisco wrote:Expect GNER to bid again, just a bit more realistically this time...

Stagecoach came 2nd last time round, so I wouldn't be shocked if they won it. Their bid was about 50% of GNERs, apparently.

The London - Scotland monopoly thing is a red herring really, as the only place which both serve with any regularity is Glasgow (which has 9 Virgin trains and 6 GNERs on a weekday, with GNER taking about 40 minutes longer than Virgin, generally). And between them they have about 10% of the air-rail market between London & Scotland anyhow.

It serves both GNER and the DfT right for offering/accepting a ridiculous bid.

you have one problem with that...
if memory serves me correct..
any franchisee that has its franchise removed from them are forbiden to bid again for any british franchise.

ie. connex.. when they lost south eastern they lost the right to bid for any uk franchise.

so surely the same would apply to GNER Holdings/Sea Containers...

NiallGray · Post by **NiallGray** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:09 pm

Much as I loath privatisation, I have to say my experiences of travelling with GNER to date have been nothing short of superb, especially when I've got a good deal on first class travel.